What is the purpose of down-votes?

TLDR: If this wall of text appears too long to read, i basically vote to abandon the "thumb down" voting option ;-)

Introduction:

I just received another down-vote to a chapter where i put a lot of work in. I pondered on what i could do about it, and came to the conclusion: Nothing. There is often no way to know why a down-vote was received, aside from speculation.

I told myself, to not be bothered by it of course, that there is nothing to be done about it. That the votes average out over time.

But is it true? That there is nothing i can about it? Of course not! Being an author at chyoa, i can write about it! ;-)

So here it is, an essay intended to open a discussion about the purpose of the down-votes, and the entire voting system overall.

Assuming that most voting users on chyoa will not read this forum post, the way i see it, there can be only two outcomes:
One: If other authors and the site administration agree, that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Two: That it is only my limited point of view, and that the majority of users might be quite happy with the way things are. In that case i would just have to accept the status quo and live with it ;-)

Now of course everything that follows is just personal opinion or speculation on my part, as i am relatively new, and have no insight into the sites setup or read the minds of the website owners ;-)

So i would like to start with discussing the general purpose of the voting system.

Why have a voting system?

• To give the reader a very simple way to interact / to give feedback
  • I like it? Great, thumbs up.
  • I don't like it? Thumbs down.

While very simple, this creates some interactivity, and gives the reader the feeling that his opinion matters, as well as conveying this to the author. Overall, i would assume that for the reader it is a nice thing to have, and improves the overall experience, without having negative consequences for the reader. (And of course as the owner of a website, i want improve the user experience to attract visitors to it.)
​

• To use the readers vote as some kind of rating system, which in return i assume is used in several places at chyoa.
  • For example when displaying search results, one can sort by "Relevance" and by "Rating".
  • Choosing the "Top sex stories".
  • Choosing the "Top chapters".

When i check the "Top sex stories", although i do not know exactly how they are calculated, i can make the following observations: Very different amounts of votes (600 on the low end, 2.700 at the high end). Very different amounts of views (from barely 150.000 to over 1,1 million). Favorites, bookmarks, chapters and chapter depth - everything varies greatly.
The one thing they seem to have in common is a 99% or 100% rating from votes.

And the "Top chapters" are clearly ordered by amount of up votes, with none of them having a single down vote.
​

I personally cannot think of anything else, and would conclude:
The voting system right now is used both as a simple way of giving feedback as well as a rating tool.

Now i would like to discuss the way this feedback is delivered and how the rating influences a readers decision to read a story.

Thumbs up:

• Part of the feedback is public.
  • The reader can see the total amount of positive votes summarized for a whole story,
    • either when he opens the search and looks for results,
    • or when he already has opened the story.
  • Additionally, the "thumbs up"for each single chapter can be seen on the "Recent Activity" tab,
  • as well of course when the chapter is opened by the reader.

As a reader, i might be more inclined to check out a story with better rating. (more regarding this later)​

• There is also feedback to the author:
  • He can receive a notification for thumbs up.
  • As well as all the options the reader has to see it.

It conveys to the author that his chapter is well liked (for whatever reason), and hopefully gives him a feeling of appreciation and motivation to create more content like it.
​

Thumbs down:
While you do not see and get notification for down votes, it still results in feedback to the public and to the author.

• Part of the feedback is public.
  • The thumbs down are not displayed on the "Recent Activity" tab, and only indirectly visible as part of the overall score (combined up and down votes).
    • Either when he opens the search and looks for results,
    • or when he already has opened the story.
  • It can be seen when the specific chapter is open.

Again, as a reader, i might be more inclined to check out a story with better rating. (more regarding this later)​

• There is also feedback to the author:
  • He does not receive a notification for thumbs up.
  • But he of course has the same options as any other reader to see it.

It conveys to the author, that his chapter is not liked (for whatever reason), and even seen as so negative, that someone actively pressed the down-vote button.​

What is the public feedback used for?

1. Calculating Ratings used for reasons explained above. (Search, "Top sex stories" ranked list)
2. Giving the reader a tool and information (among several others of course), to decide if it is worth his time to read a story.

But how does this rating actually influence a readers decision to read the story?

That is difficult to say and will differ from person to person. I also would like to differ between new readers, who do not know the story at all, and existing readers, who already follow the story:

New readers:

• When i personally open a new story from the front page (when a new chapter is added), there are obviously many diverse factors i use to decide if i should spent time with it. I have to say, that more often than not the rating is not part of this. I look more for other things, like if i like the topic and introduction chapter, or i do look at the amount of chapters and chapter depth.
• When i search for stories by entering a search-word, i might be inclined to rather check out a result, if it has more chapters and a good vote rating. If it has a bad / no rating, in addition to little content, i will likely not open it.
• Of course, if using the search, and sorting by rating, i am more inclined to pick one of the top results, rather than browsing through several pages.

​

Existing readers:

• When i follow a story, or see an update to a story i already know, i don't care about the rating at all.

​

So from my point of view, the rating is a useful tool for the reader in some circumstances, as well as useful for the ranked lists mentioned earlier, and it does have a certain impact on the chance to attract new readers.


But what about the feedback given to the author?

Again, i can only argue from my personal point of view. When i receive a thumbs up i feel happy, because i see that other people like the content that i spent much time on to create. Of course there are other indicators, like number of views, favorites, comments and private messages, and i'd rather have these. Because with the votes, there is no way to know what exactly was well liked, but the votes are a nice and simple way to convey the general message.

But what about the thumbs down? When i see one, i can think of the following reasons:

1. The reader did not like the chapter for whatever unknown reason
2. Abuse of the rating system, to drag down the rating of a story
3. Hitting the button by accident. (It is so close to the thumbs up button after all )

So lets discuss reason number one, "for whatever unknown reason".

There are quite many things the reader could possibly not like:​

• • Grammar and spelling
  • The development of the story arch in general
  • The way a character is described or acting
  • This is a story with sexual and sexual fantasy themes after all, so one might not enjoy a particular kink.
  • ...

The point is, there is no way to know what the problem is, without additional feedback. And apart from "Grammar and spelling", all the reasons i can think of are highly subjective. As an author, there is no way for me to interact with the person giving this negative "thumbs down" feedback.
I understand that the anonymity is by design, because otherwise a person might be very reluctant to use the down-vote in fear of "revenge down-voting" (i.e. "Abuse of the rating system"), or other personal repercussions.
Still, as feedback to the author i feel like this tool is very limited in conveying the message.​

Abuse of the rating system, to drag down the rating of a story

When i see, that several chapters in a row quickly receive a thumbs down, i can only assume that it is from one single person. And while i cannot know with certainty, why someone would choose to do that, i can only assume that he did not like the kink of the story, or they way it developed at all. And that he disliked it that much, that he felt the need to down vote it a lot.
The problem is, as an author i have no way of knowing, and can just say: "Ok, nevermind, i'll just ignore this".

Still it leaves behind a bad taste, because there is simply nothing i can do about it.​

• • I can turn 0 views and 0 likes into 1000 views and 10 likes.

I can spent time and effort to work on my chapters and story, to promote it.
If my chapters are not well liked, or receive very view views, because they have bad grammar, are poorly written, etc. i can do something about it. Correct the existing mistakes, and in the future spent more time before hand. And work on my writing in general (practice makes perfect).
Then i can see how the views and votes develop, and if more people like the content i create.
So by spending time and effort, i can improve the chapters and story.​

• • I cannot turn 100 views and 1 dislike into 100 views and 0 dislikes.
    • But with down-votes, there is absolutely nothing i can do, and this feels very frustrating. No matter how much i improve, the down votes are there to stay, and drag down the rating, and thus the chance at more visibility and attraction to new readers.
    • And if there was nothing wrong with my chapter at all, and the reader just hated that specific kink, this is especially frustrating.
    • For every down-vote, you need to create 99 up-votes, just to be back at a 99% rating.

And in theory this should not be a problem, because up and down votes should cancel each other out (and in a well written story there always seem to be many more up- than down-votes here on chyoa).

My last point on the abuse: There is no easy way for me as an author to report this or have it investigated. As far as i can tell, there are no rules to the voting system at chyoa, and so it is in fact no problem to down vote 20 chapters in a row, because i do not like them.

I can only see this guide: https://chyoa.com/chapter/Feedback-&-Ratings.172718
The guide simply mentions the possibility of using thumbs-up/-down to give feedback to the author.​

But i believe, that the downvoting can be a problem when a story deals with kinks that are not that widespread.

I.e. i assume that many more people like to read about straight relationships, rather than (without any judgment!) BDSM, incest, gay relationships, tentacles, furry, etc..

So by design, stories that appeal to a wider audience, already attract more up-votes, because more people would continue to read them and explore all the chapters. And they are less likely to attract down-votes, because of a person that feels especially negative about a specific kink.

So again, the system indeed does what it is designed to do: Stories that are more liked, and less disliked, receive a better rating, and thus have a better chance at visibility and attracting new readers, than stories that are being down-voted.

So when a story deals with a specific kink, it receives less views and likes already. So for the purpose of the rating for the search, the "top 10 stories", etc.,, - even without down-votes - a proper rating could be calculated. (i.e. take into account all the other existing factors, like views, likes, favorites, chapter depth and length, average likes per chapter, etc.)
But when it receives additional down-votes, or a flood of down-votes, it is much more difficult to recover the rating, due to the more limited audience.

It almost looks like a double punishment in the rating. No "like" and in addition a "dislike", especially when "abused" on several chapters in a row.


Conclusion and afterthought.

In theory, the voting system is fine as it is.

• The feedback part of the voting system is extremely limited, but manages to convey a general tendency.

It reflects that people will likely click a button to give limited feedback, and the majority does not want to take the time to write something. So it serves its purpose.​

• The rating part works as intended.

Still, i believe that all of this could be achieved without the thumbs-down button.
The feedback conveyed by the down-vote could not be less specific and useful, and the rating calculations could be adjusted to work without the down-votes.

And is it really necessary to down-vote stories you really do not like? Is it not possible to say: "Ok, i do not like this, but others might like it?" No reason to down-vote, just leave it alone and read something else.
The stories with content enjoyed by the majority will obviously still attract more up votes, and can thus receive a better overall rating.

I realize, that i as an author should write for my enjoyment, for fun, to explore the fantasies. And that the recognition in from of views, likes, etc. should be a nice bonus, but should not be the main purpose of writing in the first place. Still, it is a nice incentive, and as mentioned above, it is nice to know that others enjoy the content you are creating.

And in my opinion, if somebody does not like the story, he can just stop reading and look for something else. There is no need for additional down-voting.


So what do you think?
About the "thumbs down" button, and the voting system in general?
Is the down-vote useful? If so, how?
Do you use it? What does it take to qualify for your down-vote?
How do you feel about it as a reader, vs. as an author?
And is it OK to down vote several chapters in a row?
Could the voting system be improved?
For example i thought about replacing the thumbs down button with a grammar + spelling rating? As everything else (kink, behavior/development of characters, development of story arch, etc..) is highly subjective.

 

(from a profile post)

 

Argh!!!

I'll never write anything again! ;-)

 

Well... there are still some interesting points not covered by removing the dislike button.

An "average likes per chapter" would be nice. 1 like per chapter for a story with 100 chapters would be the same as 10 likes per chapter for a story with 10 chapters.

Interesting idea.

 

Most of what you said dingsdongs reverberated with me. I also would like to know why the thumbs down was given to a chapter especially when the thumbs up total is higher. I want to know what i did wrong of how to improve what i did. In a way i would like to see it mandatory to leave a comment if the reader gave the thumbs down rating,wouldn't care about the person's name just why it was given!

 

I think the removing of the dislike button would be a big help and bring about better critique of people's work. I personally never hit the dislike button on a fellow author but I'm also remiss to leave a negative feedback comment in fear of reprisal down votes on my own chapters. When I look at a story I generally go by the ratio of views and likes as well as chapters and likes. Dislikes are literally useless in determining a stories quality has they have no context.

 

Is it still a plan to remove the downvote button? I could really use it right now, people use it to nuke paths they don't want to see developed in favor of other branches, and don't give a good explanation for it.

 

This is a symptom of the main problem with down votes. Instead of being used as a quality test they are used as a harassment and bullying tool.

 

I'm sure some good cases can be made in favor of that button, but right now people are using it for the wrong reasons and abusing, it's way better to not have it at all. Users who are readers only have no idea how much it affects an author to see chapters get repeatedly downvoted for nothing. Speaking for myself and a few other cases I've seen over the time I've been here.

 

If i might make a suggestion. In the case that the downvote button is not removed, maybe there can be a set of reasons that the readers can select from, for why he downvoted the stroy, ex. elements of rape, non-consent, cuckold, incest (that the reader might not agree with) and stuff like this. If the reason is not among the predefined reasons than the reader can write his reason and someone (ex. a moderator) can read the thread and decide if the reason is valid, if the reason is not valid than the downvote is cancelled.

 

:/
Without the sadness, happiness is without meaning. Without the option to 'down vote', an 'up vote' loses a great deal of value.
[QUOTE ="gene.sis, post: 10152, member: 23321"](from a profile post)[/QUOTE]
Yes having a story be dissembled can be perturbing. However, 'ignoring' the cause for the vote hardly helps the story, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

The worry over a reader disliking kinks is mostly unknown to me. The only reason I may agree with is an author's who interject racism into interracial stories. The only other time is when there is confusion on how a post can actually be enjoyable to the reader of help the story.

For instance, if a girl decides to sever a man's tool after being forced to give a blowjob. Or a husband finds experiences his son cuckolding him, and kills the son. Absolutely it is a possible reaction in life, but how many readers want to read that? How does it help the story to have those 'options'?

However, such a post is another's art, and so they should be able to post it, believe do I. And thus a 'down vote'is an acceptable way of gadging how many actual agree with that. In the case of the reasoning being mysterious, the comments section is a great way to say something unless it has already been said by another.

On a macro level, the Law of Attraction suggests that any 'down vote' acts just as an up vote in generating interest for the story. Extrapolating upon that, perhaps others are focusing too closely on the details of 'how' a facit of the 'site works. Instead of the myriad reasons a reader uses to select a story they wish to read.

 

I think the downvoters get it too easy, not having to say why they did it, the author has no idea what caused the dislike. Even if one explains why they gave a downvote, in the end they are just working against the author, helping to lower the story's overall rating instead.

If it can't be removed, maybe do it like DarkFriday1408 suggested, but not giving them one-word options, the downvoter would have to explain why they did it if they really, really want to downvote, preferably with a minimum of 80~100 words (?) so they don't just write anything on the reason.

In an ideal word, the downvote would be a useful tool of feedback. But this isn't what's happening, readers are abusing of the option to target authors or specific chapters. If they don't know how to use, I'd say to take the tool away from them until they learn, if they ever do.

 

Downvoting is the part of the voting system, which can be exploited most easily.

All the discussions about downvotes named a lot of reasons to remove them and I think that they outweigh the benefits.

I think, that it is still planned to remove the button.
But I suppose, that there are lot things to consider while removal (calculating stats, ratio, top stories and so on), so this will probably need some time.
Maybe it is possible to just remove the button. (Just to prevent downvotes)

 

How can it be 'exploited'? As the OP pointed out, there is very little 'rules' governing voting, and so how can anyone be 'exploiting' it? Beyond creating myriad accounts just to 'down vote'.

Sounds as if people are suggesting it is somehow 'wrong' for a member to even want to 'down vote' a story for any reason.

Where are these 'reasons'? Only fears and conclusions based on fear is what read by me.

Opinions are valuable until people start treating them as fact; Then they become a detriment, feel do I.

Again, an 'up vote' absolutely loses its meaning if a reader loses the option to down vote. If anything, this would increase those who try to game the voting system.

It would be treated as as joke, such as any election where someone is running unopposed.

 

In that case, maybe keep the downvote option, but require the reader to give a reason for downvoting. Something between 50-100 words about why he thinks the thread should be downvoted. Just a thought.

P.S. You write/speak a bit weird dude.

 

I don't mind the downvotes, but it would be nice to see why you get them. A dropbox letting you check why you dislike something could work (though I have no idea how hard it would be to implement).
Let the readers anonymously tell the writer why they thought the chapter was crap. Could be simple, like: Grammar, Content, Poorly Written, Weird Fetish, Not Enough Smut, Too Many Big Words... etc.

Then the writer just gets a notification saying their chapter was booed for poor spelling, or whatnot. A little more constructive and keeps the writer from pulling their hair out while trying to figure out how they upset their audience.

 

I think a checkbox is letting them off too easily, it should be a blank field where the reader gives his/her reasoning, much like we have to do when rejecting a submission. But it has to have a minimum word count, maybe 50 or 80 words, otherwise the reader would just write a word or two and leave it be.

Just figured I should give my reasoning for being so vocal about it today. I've always been a silent supporter of people who wanted the dislike button removed because I've already seen writers stop posting because of downvotes or overly harsh criticism. But yesterday, I posted a chapter in my story that got massively downvoted just because I decided to change the location of two sex scenes, it didn't even feature any fetishes, just dialogue. Like I said in the comment section, I was stumped. This is a reason for not hitting the like button, at worse, not to hammer down on the dislike one.

 

- Downvotes are anonymous, so they can be used to get back at someone easily.
- Only some unfair downvotes can ruin chapter stats and/or story stats.
- Downvotes because of unpopular/"strange" kinks and fetishes are not objective.
- Downvotes because of bad grammar doesn't have any positive effects on future writing.
- Downvotes because of writing skills below average can discourage writers with little experience.

I've only seen one chapter so far, which (in my opinion) really deserved downvoting, but it was a single chapter in a good story.

Downvotes with comments could result in additional, administrative effort as there should be a way to report unfair downvotes. (e.g. when the 50-words comment is "crap crap crap just some crap ...")

Downvotes produce a lot of concern and discussions.


Just a few points without further searching the forum.

 

CHYOA hasn't had very many actual trolls, but both notorious trolling efforts have involved ratings in some capacity. The first, more obnoxious used downvotes (among other things) just to hurt the feelings of people who hurt his pride by pointing out he wasn't perfect (either by being better than him in a place he would look or just calling him on it), a habit he built all the way back in the days of CHYOO. The second, more recent decided it wanted the top spots now that we finally have a "Top Sex Stories" list that actually calculates ratings correctly and did exactly that to game the system, as well as hammered on the like button for its own stories. This is the very exploitation being discussed, and given that you're a CHYOO-era member who cast a wide net even back then, I'm genuinely surprised these didn't click in your head during this discussion.

That aside, I agree with you. If a thread's weak points outweigh its strengths, then a down vote is recommended. Some people have been citing FaceBook as an argument to get rid of the down votes, but here's a reality check for everyone: this isn't FaceBook. This isn't even social media. We're not posting about our lives for our friends, we're posting stories for entertainment purposes. We're supposed to welcome criticism since we won't get better without it. Unfortunately, from that open door venom will seep in. Look how many professional critics don't even try to hide their contempt for concepts, staff, and other irrelevant elements behind books, movies, theater, and television, allowing that feeling to dictate their paid and published critique, an opinion that the most foolish members of the public will share without question, and often times without even trying it for themselves. How is this any worse? The fact is the only way to shut out the malice is to shut oneself away from society as a whole. No matter what we do, any opening we leave for the right reasons will be exploited for the wrong reasons.

That said, down votes - really, votes in general - should never come without a comment. If a person formed an opinion worth anything, then it also has the ability to verbalize and contextualize that opinion.It may not be worthy of a highlight reel for the English language, but it will at least be a genuine effort and proof that what it feels is real, even if only to it. It also makes it easy to establish how much feedback is exploitation and how much is fair, and allows us to deal with the former. That's the right answer: force people to be responsible for their own actions. As is, CHYOA lack the ability to do this, we still take it on faith that no one will misuse the site's functions, or expect such actions to be blatant.

All stellar arguments as to why there should be a comment requirement, as well as the ability to change our opinion. In order:

- But now that one's lost anonymity and has to reveal its reasons, the malicious can have privileges revoked for a time, and permanently if need be. Ideally, this also discourages malicious down votes in the first place, as well as revenge votes.
- If the comment assures the validity of the down vote, then it's warranted. If the comment calls the down vote into question, it can be overturned.
- And now we know not to listen to this down vote, or this person. While it can hardly be called malicious, and thus can't be removed, its proven subjectivity will no longer hamper someone, instead allowing the story to grow and eventually letting many up votes minimize its impact.
- I disagree with this one strongly, but then I've never failed to also call attention to the poor grammar. Also a reason to allow a re-rating.
- I disagree with this one strongly, but then I've never failed to also call attention to the poor execution. Also a reason to allow a re-rating.

This is basic algebra. Every complaint made so far has been about the unknowns of the situation. Therefore, the answer is to turn them into knowns.

 

All of those are good arguments. With a cooler head, I still think there should be an effective way to force the downvoter to explain why he did it. If they only get the anonymous status removed, we will know who downvoted us, just as the ones who upvoted, but we'll still wonder why they downvoted the chapter, since those people revel in the anonimity and never drop a comment together with their negative vote.