Do you like reading stories with Conditions? (i.e. "Start Game")

[porneia]

Do you like reading stories that require the reader to press "Start Game" in order for Conditions to be turned on?

I love the idea of creating a text adventure game on here* but it's a lot of work (because of the programing nature of the writing). I have been spending a lot of time making a major branch to my Catwoman story that heavily uses conditions, but I am a bit surprised it doesn't seem to be as popular as my simple non-condition story. Now, it could be that the writing/plot isn't as good, but I think there might be technical reasons also, which include:

1) Condition based stories are written "vertically" instead of "horizontally." In the normal story I focused on writing out one major plot based branch with few chapter options. (So, I wrote chapters 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.1, 9.1, 10.1, etc.) In the game/condition branch I have focused on always giving at least two options. (So, I wrote chapters 5.1, 5.2, 6.1, 6.2, 6.1, 6.2, etc.) The horizontal approach (5.1, 6.1, 7.1, etc.) would encourage more return views to follow the next "episode" of the story, instead of backtracking to some previous chapter with the horizontal approach.

2) You can't skip ahead (easily) in conditional base stories. For example, this chapter (I think) is quite fun and racy, but the naughty bits are all hidden by conditional choices. If you read it without conditions it is boring and doesn't make much sense.

So, do you like reading stories with conditions? It does hinder everyone's favorite approach of quickly skipping to the fun parts.

Is writing a story that heavily uses conditions worth it?

Thank you.

* = Please, I would love to see a random number generator script!

 

[Ben Rosewood]

I'd probably lean to no because I find a lot of 'game' stories fall into the following pitfalls

1. Being linear as all hell and making the game mode redundant
2. Errors with the gamemode that make it impossible to progress without turning game mode off

I also believe a lot of people reading don't enjoy being locked into a certain path and enjoy exploring stories. This can be doubly so if certain fetishes turn up.

Finally, it is a lot of work, with a lot of potential for error that can completely derail the game mode (as mentioned above).

 

[porneia]

I also believe a lot of people reading don't enjoy being locked into a certain path and enjoy exploring stories.

Very true, though I recently found out you can "go back" in conditional based stories and the program undoes your previous choices, which is a nice feature. Props to the Programing Department.

Being linear as all hell and making the game mode redundant.

That is why I am forcing myself to write "vertically" which isn't as enjoyable.

I'd probably lean to no . . . with a lot of potential for error that can completely derail the game mode (as mentioned above).

I greatly appreciate the honesty. Part of me wants to give up, but part of me wants to get all stupid and forge blindly ahead.

Writing a good "game story" is my second biggest fantasy for myself on chyoa. My first, is to have a "complete" story. Damn, I'm really am a masochist.

 

[porneia]

Errors with the gamemode that make it impossible to progress without turning game mode off

Do you mean errors made by the story's writer or errors created because of bad chyoa scripting?

 

[Ben Rosewood]

Do you mean errors made by the story's writer or errors created because of bad chyoa scripting?

I mean by writers themselves (EDIT: I mean that with writers in general and not you specifically). One wrong calculation with numbers, or one miss-spelled variable and the whole thing falls apart. This becomes more problematic the more variables an author adds to their story. IMO The effort one has to put in to craft a solid game mode in CHYOA requires so much effort you may as well just cross that bridge and make a full-fledged Twine game like Female Agent http://www.femaleagentgame.com/ and try to make some money. EDIT Granted that making a game in Twine does require some programming knowledge, but there are tutorials out on the internet.

My first, is to have a "complete" story. Damn, I'm really am a masochist.

I feel the pain.

 

[Derek Metaltron]

It's new to me but I like the concept, and it definitely works very well in your story with the costume choices (the Red Sonja stuff is awesome - makes you wonder what a comic con in a universe where supers do exist would be like...) I think once people get their head around the coding aspects and writers take the time to experiment it's ideal. I could understand if someone preferred to just list all the options or repeat some material with some variation based on choice though....

 

[brevdravis]

Honestly, I don't much care for the Conditional Variables. I grew up with Choose Your Own Adventure books, so my writing style lends itself more to flowchart style writing. It's simpler, admittedly, but I find that while I wouldn't mind doing the flowcharts for conditional variables, I don't think that way for my entertainment.

I see a movie in my head, and it's easier for me to think about swapping reels, than little background goblins making the reels change for me.

 

[porneia]

The effort one has to put in to craft a solid game mode in CHYOA requires so much effort .

That is why I gave up on my Red Monika story/game and decided to try something much more limited, like Catwoman at a Convention for ten hours.

Female Agent http://www.femaleagentgame.com/

I did not know about this! Thank you.

And thank you for the suggestions and the replies, they were all very helpful.

 

[porneia]

I think once people get their head around the coding aspects and writers take the time to experiment it's ideal.

The problem is you get more immediate rewards (likes, comments, etc.) going the easy route. For my Catwoman at the Convention game I would to at least get to the 1/3 mark (the "Hottest Booth Babe" Competition). All the branches will meet at this point and then I will reevaluate to see if it is worth pushing on.

I could understand if someone preferred to just list all the options or repeat some material with some variation based on choice though....

I know this is an acceptable practice, but I always feel like cheating when I do it.

 

[porneia]

Honestly, I don't much care for the Conditional Variables. I grew up with Choose Your Own Adventure books, so my writing style lends itself more to flowchart style writing. It's simpler, admittedly, but I find that while I wouldn't mind doing the flowcharts for conditional variables, I don't think that way for my entertainment. I see a movie in my head, and it's easier for me to think about swapping reels, than little background goblins making the reels change for me.

I guess it is the Dungeon/Game Master in me back from my school days. I really, really, want to write an adventure game.

Conditions do have some advantages in chyoa:
1) It is a powerful tool for bringing several branches together into one (or a few).
2) Having variables can add so much to the story possibilities.
3) I like the idea of "special" choices (or lack thereof) for the reader/player.

 

[Derek Metaltron]

I think it’s great as a demonstration of what is possible to create for a writer and could with significant effect allow for a game with a Skyrim or Fallout level of adventure and complexity, but as you say the mass audiences of CHYOA are gonna want quick and straight forward erotica of various types and kinks and might not even notice the ‘game’ section at times (not to say I am blameless in that regard, heh). But hopefully as it becomes easier to coding more complex adventure games (erotica or otherwise) writers might take more chances with games like that.

Female Agent looks great, does give me hope about making something like it with my Spidey or Skrull or Doctor Who ideas...

 

[gene.sis]

1) Condition based stories are written "vertically" instead of "horizontally." In the normal story I focused on writing out one major plot based branch with few chapter options.

I think it is quite important to have only "one" branch. So the reader shouldn't be able to walk around freely.
Similar to walking through a dungeon. Sure, you can look into the doors left or right but basically, you are heading either forward or backward. (like in a game)

To avoid the branching out, you can offer only one option to most chapter, though you must already know about the variables you'll need in the future.
(I could also imagine a quest-like approach where you offer some options without including them in the chapter. As soon as there is an option where x people asked for in the comments, you'd add that one.)

2) You can't skip ahead (easily) in conditional base stories. For example, this chapter (I think) is quite fun and racy, but the naughty bits are all hidden by conditional choices. If you read it without conditions it is boring and doesn't make much sense.

You can "force" readers to turn on Conditional Branches by not showing content if it isn't turned on. (You can instead show a note that Game Mode must be turned on and offer the link to do so.)
A problem is that many stories have Game Mode activated but doesn't use it at all. This could lead to "Why should I turn it on? It doesn't change anything."

Very true, though I recently found out you can "go back" in conditional based stories and the program undoes your previous choices, which is a nice feature.

If you use loops, this doesn't work properly yet.

I grew up with Choose Your Own Adventure books, so my writing style lends itself more to flowchart style writing.

Well, I think that a lot of writers don't really do CYOA (even if 2nd person) but rather a Choose Their Adventure. IMO CYOA means that the reader may decide what the protagonist does and not what happens to them.

The problem is you get more immediate rewards (likes, comments, etc.) going the easy route.

Unfortunately...

 

[brevdravis]

Well, I think that a lot of writers don't really do CYOA (even if 2nd person) but rather a Choose Their Adventure. IMO CYOA means that the reader may decide what the protagonist does and not what happens to them.

That's fair. I admit that my personal favorite CHYOA books didn't have multiple endings but rather one ending which all of paths led to. (Specifically thinking about the "Time Machine" or "Lone Wolf" books or the "Escape" series, which I greatly enjoyed but most people never heard of. And I may have just given out exactly HOW old I am. )

Lone Wolf used conditional variables with regards to having a character sheet, but pretty much followed the flowchart format. Some random numbers were involved, but overall, it was pretty simple and relied on player honesty, which let's be honest, almost no player ever did.

 

[gene.sis]

I think it is quite important to have only "one" branch.

Um, well... that might depend on how much a story makes use of game mode. This was rather meant for heavy use with if statements.
If it is only used to track decisions, it might be manageable to branch out more.


About the initial question... I like Game Mode stories, though the possibilities are often limited and not everything is doable with workarounds.

 

[gene.sis]

"Lone Wolf" [...] most people never heard of.

That's mentioned on wiki

Lone Wolf used conditional variables with regards to having a character sheet, but pretty much followed the flowchart format. Some random numbers were involved, but overall, it was pretty simple and relied on player honesty, which let's be honest, almost no player ever did.

In my youth, I've done some single player RPGs as well...
so yeah... if you can cheat (easily), you do it

That's why I would prefer if you couldn't do that. It's like with these games on C64... I could play them again and again without making a lot of progress... and it was always fun to start the game... but as soon as I used a cheated version, I never played the game again... there was nothing new to see, no high score to beat, so there was no goal anymore.

 

[brevdravis]

That's why I would prefer if you couldn't do that. It's like with these games on C64... I could play them again and again without making a lot of progress... and it was always fun to start the game... but as soon as I used a cheated version, I never played the game again... there was nothing new to see, no high score to beat, so there was no goal anymore.

Exactly why I like this site so much. If I REALLY don't like the direction a story is going I often have the option to write my way out of it, or into it as the case may be. Honestly, I need to start adding to other people's stories again, but right now I'm really feeling my own work, which is a bit of egotism, I admit.

I freely admit to being a cheating GM back in my youth, because I tended to play rules light systems like Star Wars D6. (While I read Dungeons and Dragons 2nd and 3rd Edition, I didn't play them much because I hated having to undo awesome story ideas because they were "Against the Rules". I have a deep and abiding hatred for rules lawyers, and conditional variables feel like arguing with one sometimes. ) Nothing against those who can speak that language well, I salute you. I'm more of the "Throw it all on the paper, and keep rewriting until it works" school of thought rather than the RIGID planner. My characters and stories tend to take paths I don't expect a lot of the time.

 

[gene.sis]

I freely admit to being a cheating GM back in my youth

Well, I think that cheating a little while GMing a group makes a good GM. Though only if the GM plays for the players and not for himself. So the cheating should only be something to tell the story, to make it more interesting and thrilling.

I didn't play them much because I hated having to undo awesome story ideas because they were "Against the Rules".

I really can relate to that. Had the same thing with a system which featured super detailed world descriptions when a player told me "No, we're in [country], they don't do that here!" (Unexplored worlds are much more fun...)

I like rules, though they don't have to abide them for the rules' sake.

Nothing against those who can speak that language well, I salute you. I'm more of the "Throw it all on the paper, and keep rewriting until it works" school of thought rather than the RIGID planner.

Well, if use Conditional Branches mainly for tracking decisions and blocking later decisions, it's quite easy and you don't have to plan too much.
(Like creating a variable "Called [name] One Night Stand" ... later, the player meets that woman and her friend... if he had called her, she could offer him a threesome, if not, the option would be blocked.)
If stories branch and later run together, it is always weird if you read something and think "That never happened" (or there are no references to the past events at all.)

 

[Derek Metaltron]

That's fair. I admit that my personal favorite CHYOA books didn't have multiple endings but rather one ending which all of paths led to. (Specifically thinking about the "Time Machine" or "Lone Wolf" books or the "Escape" series, which I greatly enjoyed but most people never heard of. And I may have just given out exactly HOW old I am. )

Lone Wolf used conditional variables with regards to having a character sheet, but pretty much followed the flowchart format. Some random numbers were involved, but overall, it was pretty simple and relied on player honesty, which let's be honest, almost no player ever did.

This is partly because Time Machine and Lone Wolf are good examples of the two separate types of interactive fiction between Narrative driven like the classic Choose Your Own Adventure books and stat driven like the Fighting Fantasy books, where one is simply choice with narrative around it and the other requiring dice rolls and possibly combat mechanics of some sort. Pretty much all interactive fiction is in one of those two camps (unless it’s a Parser style game like Zork where you write out simple instructions like NORTH or TAKE SWORD). In recent years people also incorrectly use the term ‘Choose Your Own Adventure’ to describe Reader Interactives (where the writer requests the readers to tell them what to do next with the top voted option continuing the story and no interest or intentions to write all possible outcomes) which often bugs me. But interactive fiction is a varied beast!

 

[porneia]

cheating a little while GMing

By definition, a GM can't cheat. He can be a bad, or unfair GM, but he can't cheat.

 

[Javalar]

I am a big fan of the game mode, my two main big stories both have conditions switched on.

My main reason is, I think, that I am fascinated by the idea of "collecting" stuff (and "stuff" here could be character stats or items or encounters) and then being led/forced into different branches by decisions you made earlier.

Of course, you could also do this the old Lone-Wolf-style by simply asking the reader "If you have the Grand Master Kai Ability of Oral Sex, turn to...", which is, more or less, how I did it in "Happy Maid" (but still with variables switched on), but seeing paths greyed out and wondering what I would have to do to go there is a big attraction for me.

I do agree with all the aforementioned difficulties, though: Game mode stories are much harder to navigate and explore, they can get broken easily, and, to be honest, writing chapters with a lot of text hidden/changed by variables is quite some tiresome work and much less rewarding, because you work hard on a simple chapter, and maybe even put 3-4 different chapters into one, but just get to publish one chapter.

Unfortunately, some writers here don't really put a lot of thought and effort into their game mode stories and/or maybe even turn variables on without understanding what it actually means.

My main approach/guideline to a game story would be the the following:

• Have an exposition with chapters where you make your first decisions and thus shape your character/find things/collect your first stat points. Not the boring kind of "Build your character here", but rather a fun part where you read and play already, but the first decisions you take still leave you all the choices possible. Don't branch out too much, because you will rue it later. Follow the broad idea of the Lone-Wolf-stories by branching out and coming back to the main storyline after a while. (FF was doing this as well, but FF often did not tell real stories anyway, most of the early books were just typical dungeon crawlers).
• The main part should be where the earlier decisions have impact. If, for example, you collected a lot of "Lust" points, this is where you can't escape any sexual encounters or orgasm much quicker than you'd expect. Or this is where you an put that item you found in the exposition to use. Branch out a bit more here, but still come back to the main storyline, or at least have 2-3 main storylines in mind.
• Have a lot of different endings, some of them harder to achieve, so that people wonder how to get there. But, again, don't branch out to widely, because it'll be too much work.

I'd really love to have more stories following that broad pattern.

For "The Invitation", I started a google.doc excel sheet, to keep track about the different variables that can change during each stage of the story, so I know how much of stat X or stat Y is possible once the reader reaches a certain room. (Or which hidden little messages and alterations I want to add to the text, based on previous encounters and experience). I should have done this with Happy Maid as well, but I am not the most organized person in the world, I admit. It is incredibly helpful, though. Especially if you want other writers to join and contribute, and they can get a quick overview of the variables/stats in play and what is handed out where.