Flags without Game Mode

[LizardGod]

Slightly odd title but basically it would be nice to be able to use flags in stories in a way that they are automatic and hidden from the player.

An example would be if I have a chapter where a reader makes a choice about if they are open to Bi-sexual scenes or not. It would be nice to be able to set up a Boolean depending on what they do and then use that to show or hide parts of later chapters.

Right now you have to have the whole game part in and the reader has to choose/remember to turn it on. It would be nice to have some low level stuff like that in without needing to have the game element.

Really just being able to use flags and if statements to show or hide parts of chapters without the game stuff would save a lot of time. Since there are sometimes choices a reader makes that won't actually cause a change until much later in the story.

 

[dingsdongs]

If i understand this correctly, the Problem is:

• You would like to use several features of the game mode (variables, conditions, alter text with if clauses etc.[or is that possible without game mode?]).
• You just don't want the reader to have to turn on game mode, so you can use them ;-)

The solution would be basically:

• A type of story, where game mode, or a variation of it, is always and automatically turned on.

(Because you have to remember the choices, variables etc. of the reader).
The reader would still need a way to reset his story (to reset the set flags / variables and be able to select different choices).

Another very simple solution to the above problem would be:

• Tell the reader to turn on the game mode ;-)

 

[LizardGod]

If i understand this correctly, the Problem is:

• You would like to use several features of the game mode (variables, conditions, alter text with if clauses etc.[or is that possible without game mode?]).
• You just don't want the reader to have to turn on game mode, so you can use them ;-)

The solution would be basically:

• A type of story, where game mode, or a variation of it, is always and automatically turned on.

(Because you have to remember the choices, variables etc. of the reader).
The reader would still need a way to reset his story (to reset the set flags / variables and be able to select different choices).

Another very simple solution to the above problem would be:

• Tell the reader to turn on the game mode ;-)

True I could ask people but as I said the problem is that some people will still forget and I would like to be able to do stuff safe in the knowledge that it will work as intended regardless of a reader decided to click a button or not.

 

[Kaitou1412]

True I could ask people but as I said the problem is that some people will still forget and I would like to be able to do stuff safe in the knowledge that it will work as intended regardless of a reader decided to click a button or not.

So the simplest way to phrase it would be, "A game mode story should default to 'on' upon startup."

Meaning that if we simply want to view a specific thread by a certain author (for whatever reason we can come up with) and had not yet opened the story or simply forgot to turn off game mode before going to the story map, we would have to:

1.) Find the thread in question.
2.) Select the thread in question.
3.) Be redirected to either the start of the story or wherever we concluded our game mode.
4.) Turn off game mode.
5.) Open the story map.
6.) Refind the thread in question.
7.) Reselect the thread in question.

This compares to the current method of:

1.) Find the thread in question.
2.) Select the thread in question.

I like the current method better on the grounds of practicality. If people need help remembering to turn on game mode, tell them up front to turn on game mode as dingsdongs suggested.

And mind you, this assumes everyone knows about game mode and how it works. Things get much worse if I begin calculating for people who have yet to familiarize themselves with CHYOA.

 

[dingsdongs]

Well, i think that having an option for game mode to be on by default is a very valid wish, as it would make sure that the story will be experienced as designed by the author.

@Kaitou1412: Regarding the problem of the story map and specific chapters not available and getting redirected etc:
This could be solved by the story map button, when currently in game mode, issuing a warning instead, that offers to proceed and turn off game mode, or stay on the chapter page instead.

 

[LizardGod]

So the simplest way to phrase it would be, "A game mode story should default to 'on' upon startup."

Meaning that if we simply want to view a specific thread by a certain author (for whatever reason we can come up with) and had not yet opened the story or simply forgot to turn off game mode before going to the story map, we would have to:

1.) Find the thread in question.
2.) Select the thread in question.
3.) Be redirected to either the start of the story or wherever we concluded our game mode.
4.) Turn off game mode.
5.) Open the story map.
6.) Refind the thread in question.
7.) Reselect the thread in question.

This compares to the current method of:

1.) Find the thread in question.
2.) Select the thread in question.

I like the current method better on the grounds of practicality. If people need help remembering to turn on game mode, tell them up front to turn on game mode as dingsdongs suggested.

And mind you, this assumes everyone knows about game mode and how it works. Things get much worse if I begin calculating for people who have yet to familiarize themselves with CHYOA.

I don't mean having a full blown game mode, instead having a slightly simpler one that is always running in the background. The writer sets up the values at the start or when ever they want to and they set a default value for them. Those values would be basic Boolean values that you would use pretty much to know what to show a person in a chapter or which chapters they will see.

So if someone wanted to come in and go to a chapter then it would simply use the default values and show them that chapter. It could also have a warning or note to say that they can start the story over to have the values change if they like but otherwise the story will go along using the defaults.

Hence why I said it is a more bare bones version of game mode where there is no button to press, it is just a type of story where flags can be used by the writer.

 

[Kaitou1412]

@Kaitou1412: Regarding the problem of the story map and specific chapters not available and getting redirected etc:
This could be solved by the story map button, when currently in game mode, issuing a warning instead, that offers to proceed and turn off game mode, or stay on the chapter page instead.

A pop-up warning or a full warning page isn't a bad idea, and it would nullify my objections since it preserves users' progress. I instead say it should appear when we open the thread, rather than when we open the story map. Besides making it applicable from the search function and a user's thread list and making the programming more consistent as a consequence, I personally like to chart my second playthroughs with a quick pop to the story map, so disengaging game mode by opening the map would be more problematic than helpful. Still not a high priority, but at least it's a valid presentation of the idea.

I don't mean having a full blown game mode, instead having a slightly simpler one that is always running in the background. The writer sets up the values at the start or when ever they want to and they set a default value for them. Those values would be basic Boolean values that you would use pretty much to know what to show a person in a chapter or which chapters they will see.

If the variables are still calculating, the values are adjusting, and the story is shooting out conditional views as a response to the first two, then what exactly separates this from a default game mode?

So if someone wanted to come in and go to a chapter then it would simply use the default values and show them that chapter. It could also have a warning or note to say that they can start the story over to have the values change if they like but otherwise the story will go along using the defaults.

How would this procedure preserve continuity with linked threads? Sure, game mode's running in the background, but the fact is we may have just jumped over multiple links that are critical to a game mode makes it impossible for the method to shoot out a specific thread - which is the reason game mode doesn't let us jump around freely. It would instead require that each writer has to set a default value for each thread in the event game mode is off, and making more work for identical results. Otherwise, we're just leaving it to whatever process the site is already using to generate specific renditions of a thread when game mode isn't engaged, thereby making these changes more work for identical results.

Default game mode would simplify all of these concerns, so long as we include the notification as dingsdongs suggested. There's no reason to complicate it any more than that.

 

[LizardGod]

If the variables are still calculating, the values are adjusting, and the story is shooting out conditional views as a response to the first two, then what exactly separates this from a default game mode?

For one thing a new reader would not be dumped back at the start of the story when they tried to click on a later chapter. Instead that chapter would simply assume certain choices have been made. So say someone clicks on a chapter half way through a story and lets say across the whole story there are three flags The writer would set the value for the flags (In this case lets say True,True, False) and since the reader has skipped over the chapters that let those values be changed it will spit out the "default" chapter.

It would be consistent since the values are set as soon as the chapter is entered. The game mode checks for changes before sending anything to the reader so they would only notice a change if that chapter had a change in it but that would not matter since the reader is jumping in at any point. So if a reader jumped in at a chapter that changed a True value to a False then it would just roll with that. if they then went back to the first chapter it would also not matter since whatever changes where made in that chapter would the change made by the later chapter.

The best way to do it would be to have a type of variable that can be created in any chapter called a "Global" no matter how far in to the story it is made as soon as it is set to a "Global" it is treated as if it was created in the first chapter. That way writers would not need to backtrack to the Intro every time they wanted to add one. It may very well be that that is how things work right now but it doesn't seem like it.

As I said this is not meant to be a fully fledged game mode, it would not be for writers that want to track health or more complex game mechanics. Instead it would be for writers who want to have choices be able to effect things much later. Right now you basically have to either have to force a choice in to a point it may not really make sense to avoid having to have two nearly identical threads just to preserve a choice that was made earlier. It would also help avoid having to write more generic chapters between choices since you don't know exactly what choice the reader made at that point. Again the way that a char approached a sex scene can have subtle but constant effects on the things that happen after words but not enough to make a whole new thread worthwhile. If we could instead use flags to show alt text within a chapter would make it a lot easier to write more interesting chapters.

Default game mode would simplify all of these concerns, so long as we include the notification as dingsdongs suggested. There's no reason to complicate it any more than that.

Forcing game mode would be a stop gap but I think it would annoy more people than it is worth doing and again it would still force writers to double back to the intro to add the flags.

Like I said what I am suggesting is something more than just a game mode that is forced on. It is a more subtle version of game mode, maybe even one that readers would not even know is actually running for the reasons i pointed out above.

Obviously I don't know how the site is coded but I think having Global Variables for stories would be pretty easy to add since you would just need to add a check to a chapter when it is published. If it has a global variable added in it then the Intro chapter is updated and daisy chained down the line to all the other chapters from there.

 

[Kaitou1412]

For one thing a new reader would not be dumped back at the start of the story when they tried to click on a later chapter.

dingsdongs already worked that one out under the default game mode proposal.

Instead that chapter would simply assume certain choices have been made. So say someone clicks on a chapter half way through a story and lets say across the whole story there are three flags The writer would set the value for the flags (In this case lets say True,True, False) and since the reader has skipped over the chapters that let those values be changed it will spit out the "default" chapter.

It would be consistent since the values are set as soon as the chapter is entered. The game mode checks for changes before sending anything to the reader so they would only notice a change if that chapter had a change in it but that would not matter since the reader is jumping in at any point. So if a reader jumped in at a chapter that changed a True value to a False then it would just roll with that. if they then went back to the first chapter it would also not matter since whatever changes where made in that chapter would the change made by the later chapter.

What if the conditions of the thread require numeric values instead of simple Yes/No checks? It means a writer now has decide which version of the thread they want to be default and set the value of the variable in accordance with this choice, something the site is already doing anyway without the writers help. On top of that, they have to keep it in line with the other default chapters to be consistent. Otherwise, even under your simplistic example, we go from a "Yes, Yes, No" thread to a "Yes, No, No, Yes" thread, thereby destroying continuity. And you still haven't addressed what happens with multiple branches reconverging at linked threads, where this default value system crumbles due to the multitude of choices that could have been made before.

There's either a continuity-minded game mode, a default story that has little control over continuity due to linked threads, or a continuity-minded default story with multiple repeating threads due to no linked threads. Anything else is simply impossible. And to that end, I side with the first one.

Forcing game mode would be a stop gap but I think it would annoy more people than it is worth doing

Why? You were complaining the people weren't turning game mode on in the first place. A default would alleviate this, and the warning page can act as a nice greeting to CHYOA's processes. What exactly would be annoying about it?

and again it would still force writers to double back to the intro to add the flags.

No it doesn't. New variables and flags can be added as the story progresses. Or are you proposing that the problem is the writer didn't set a flag in an old thread that would be critical to a new thread? That the site has to make note of something that no one is telling it to make note of? That the site has to now compensate for pure laziness instead of being a testament to hard work?

Like I said what I am suggesting is something more than just a game mode that is forced on. It is a more subtle version of game mode, maybe even one that readers would not even know is actually running for the reasons i pointed out above.

The bottom line is: it's a game mode. Why develop a second game mode when the first one is doing spectacularly? Why not switch to default and a warning page, which would, in all probability, be a simpler programming choice that achieves the same results you're looking for with far less headaches for writers and programmers alike?

 

[TheDespaxas]

I know from having tried my hand at a game story that you can set a conditional part that would be seen by people who don't have a variable and make it the default that would be seen by someone who hasn't activated game mode. I don't know if you could use that. You have to use a @ after the if in a statement and it is the default.

 

[Kaitou1412]

I know from having tried my hand at a game story that you can set a conditional part that would be seen by people who don't have a variable and make it the default that would be seen by someone who hasn't activated game mode. I don't know if you could use that. You have to use a @ after the if in a statement and it is the default.

And this serves as a reminder that I need to take my game mode story off of hiatus so I can play around with game mode.

This still generates the same problems surrounding linked threads I've previously outlined. However, it also achieves the same goals this "simple game mode" sought to achieve while being far more simplistic for all parties. Most notably, setting a multitude of variables in a sidebar for each individual thread is simplified to adding one character in the right place. Still inferior to a proper game mode, but more than adequate for a story.

 

[gene.sis]

Tell the reader to turn on the game mode ;-)

True I could ask people but as I said the problem is that some people will still forget and I would like to be able to do stuff safe in the knowledge that it will work as intended regardless of a reader decided to click a button or not.

If people need help remembering to turn on game mode, tell them up front to turn on game mode as dingsdongs suggested.

Well, i think that having an option for game mode to be on by default is a very valid wish, as it would make sure that the story will be experienced as designed by the author.

There is a way to force the reader to turn on game mode (when game mode is off, it will show the information but no chapter text)

{if@ nonexistantvariable=1
}    GIVE THE READER AN INFORMATION THAT HE HAS TO TURN ON GAME MODE HERE     {else
}    PLACE YOUR CHAPTER TEXT AND ALL OTHER CONDITIONAL BRANCHES SYNTAX HERE    {endif}

or just note that the reader should turn on game mode (when game mode is off, it will additionally show the information)

{if@ nonexistantvariable=1
}    GIVE THE READER AN INFORMATION THAT HE SHOULD TURN ON GAME MODE HERE
{endif}    PLACE YOUR CHAPTER TEXT AND ALL OTHER CONDITIONAL BRANCHES SYNTAX HERE

(There should be no variable called "nonexistantvariable" at all (or the value have to be not equal 1). That way, the statement will always fail and the warning won't be shown. If game mode is off, the part with the "@" will be shown.)

Besides that, the solution proposed by TheDespaxas could work in some cases.

I personally like to chart my second playthroughs with a quick pop to the story map,

Do you mean something like a history?

 

[Kaitou1412]

Do you mean something like a history?

Pretty much. After I finish playing the game my way, I want to see what else the writer(s) set in the story, so I reset my game progress and play again. In order to help me get a different ending, I view the map to see where branches reconverge via linked threads and remind myself which choices I'd made on a previous go. Doing this, I get to read every version of the story, even with conditional branches and various variable checks along the way.

It's already set up with the story map keeping threads highlighted until read or marked as "read," so there's no real need to create a new programming to accommodate this choice, and that's assuming there's enough users like me to make it a priority. My point was more to the idea from dingsdongs - that a notification upon opening the story map could be programmed to let users know that going forward with this decision to jump around means turning off game mode - would be better to implemented at the thread users attempt to open simply because putting the notification at the choice to open the story map makes it impossible for users like me to use the story map to chart a specific course through a game mode story. Additionally, the suggestion from dingsdongs was made in response to the notion that a game mode story should have game mode turn on when opened, which further complicates mid-story entries through searches and individual users' thread lists, and further justifies why it should be at the thread instead of the story map since those open a game mode story without being given the option of a story map.

 

[gene.sis]

Doing this, I get to read every version of the story, even with conditional branches and various variable checks along the way.

Well, depending on the game structure it can be very hard to get all versions of a story. (for example, the ending chapter could be like 10 different chapters if the author uses a lot of if statements)

My point was more to the idea from dingsdongs - that a notification upon opening the story map could be programmed to let users know that going forward with this decision to jump around means turning off game mode - would be better to implemented at the thread users attempt to open simply because putting the notification at the choice to open the story map makes it impossible for users like me to use the story map to chart a specific course through a game mode story. Additionally, the suggestion from dingsdongs was made in response to the notion that a game mode story should have game mode turn on when opened, which further complicates mid-story entries through searches and individual users' thread lists, and further justifies why it should be at the thread instead of the story map since those open a game mode story without being given the option of a story map.

I could imagine a note "Do you really want to leave game mode?" when choosing a link at the story map.

I think the story map should be still accessible in game mode, though it should either looks/behaves as now or shows a history including all links and loops.