Rule clarification

N

nahdude

Virgin
So I write pretty much strictly ENF, and I had a question about the age rule as it relates to that genre since it often features no sexual activity.

First of all, any character I have mentioned so far in my stories is 18 years of age or older, and that will never change. I think even ENF, one of the tamer genres in erotic literature, gets creepy when the protagonist is too young. So no, my question is not "Can a girl under 18 get naked in my story?" . I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure that's explicitly not allowed, which doesn't make any difference to me.

My question is more about if characters that are underage can be present in the stories at all.

Like for example, a younger sibling takes all the clothes and towel from the shower room, forcing their (18+) sister to walk out naked. Is this allowed?

What if it was a complete accident, and they didn't even mean to do this, and don't even see her naked at all?

But what if they see her naked? Is this allowed? This would absolutely not be for a sexual or perverted reason, the only reason they would do this is as a prank to embarrass their sister, or as a simple mistake. It only serves to embarrass the girl.

I just would like some clarification on where the line is drawn. I will NEVER have a story or chapter that features an underage person having sex or witnessing sexual activity, even without the rule that is way too much for me.

Again, the younger person would NOT be present in any sexual scenario under any circumstance, including touching of any kind, masturbation, oral sex, or intercourse. At most they see someone naked. And they have no romantic or sexual feelings from seeing someone naked, at most they think it's funny. Otherwise, they have no real opinion on the matter.

I tried searching for an answer here and all I found was that someone had asked a similar question inside of a larger thread about this rule, but there wasn't really a helpful answer.

Last time: Absolutely NO underage characters end up naked themselves, they are simply either the cause of or a witness to the nudity of someone else, who is of age. No further interaction occurs.

I am expecting the answer to be "no" to any of the scenarios I listed above, and I completely understand and will accept that. There will be no arguing on my part, unless it is to clarify one of my points. I just want to make sure.
 
I would guess you could have children in a story in a non sexual capacity, after all children do exsist in the real world.

I think you could get away with the example of stealing clothes in a story that is going for a "Sex Comedy" vibe since that is a classic of those films.

As long as you are not lingering on then I think you would be fine. Although I have never had kids in my stories in any meaningful way I would guess it would be the same as the rules on violence, don't overdo it.

Then I might be totally wrong, I am just making a guess.
 
I too am just guessing: but I seem to recall a bit on the main site which says "All characters in stories on this site are over 18": so I THINK we have to keep any kids TOTALLY away from anything even remotely sexual...

(If they mean that absolutely literally hundreds of stories, just that I've seen, would be required to be totally rewritten...)
 
I'm inclined to side with lizisbest on this one. The message on the front page is more of a generalization than an actual rule, and even then is more obsolete legal boilerplate that we still adhere to due to allowing images more than it is anything practical. I think seeing and laughing are benign enough to be classified as a "non-sexual capacity" so long as the characters themselves have a non-sexual reaction to these specific gawkers. In other words, the inner exhibitionist is too preoccupied with the ramifications of being seen by a child to find any enjoyment in the act - mortifying, terrifying, but not enticing.

However, this is a good question that should have more posts. I strongly encourage anyone who sees this topic to weigh in, and hopefully we can update the guide with our agreed answer.
 
Underage people should absolutely be allowed in stories as long as they're in a non-sexual capacity.

Although I recognize that is very much toeing the line, I'd say even "Implied" sex would be okay as long as it isn't described in any capacity.example: You walk up the stairs and Teengirl A walks out of Boy B's bedroom and heads to the shower. She's wearing a towel and her hair is disheveled. Boy B comes to the door basically naked. They absolutely banged. There are far more graphic representations of underage sex in text form on the internet. The important part is not describing any acts with minors in explicit detail. Essentially "cockblocking" those who would be interested in that type of stuff.

I recognize the importance of keeping that kind of stuff off the site primarily to avoid any kind of underage images floating around. However, ignoring the fact that people under the age of 18 exist and ignoring the fact that teenagers can and have had sex is absurd.
 
I think that, when it comes to whether something should be against the rules, anything a (using US content rating) PG-13 movie can get away with we should without doubt be able to get away with.

If it's something that touches on the rules, and an author asks him/herself 'could I imagine a modern PG-13 movie where on screen with real actors and real people they could get away with this and market it as PG-13?' and the answer is 'yes', there shouldn't be much of a question as to whether it can be written.

Let me try to restate, if that wasn't clear:

If a modern PG-13 movie can get away with a specific story scene and keep its PG-13 rating, we should be able get away with that same scene in our stories - this being a minimum baseline of being reasonable about what is allowed to be written, for sure, without doubt, without overanalyzing specifics.

If the answer (to the question of whether a modern PG-13 movie could get away with a certain scene) is 'no', then there's at least a question and a debate to be had (or maybe it's just outright against the rules, again with no reasonable debate). It's a gray area. But if the answer is 'yes', as a bare minimum I think that's the absolute least we can say is reasonable, without it really even being a gray area.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies!

Kaitou, I guess I didn't mention it, but yes, the naked girl herself also has no sexual feeling from being seen by a child.
 
Maybe I'm a little naive about what PG-13 can imply... and as a porn site things can be a little tricky, a little extra rules-y... but it seems weird to me that there would be a question of whether we can write a scene using text and have it be forbidden whereas it could be *shown with live actors* and marketed to 'Parental Guidance if you're under 13' and that would be a 'no-no'.
 
Loeman said:
Maybe I'm a little naive about what PG-13 can imply... and as a porn site things can be a little tricky, a little extra rules-y... but it seems weird to me that there would be a question of whether we can write a scene using text and have it be forbidden whereas it could be *shown with live actors* and marketed to 'Parental Guidance if you're under 13' and that would be a 'no-no'.
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A lot of it has to do with the fact that most people here aren't really professionals who have to deal with this sort of stuff on a regular basis and as this is the internet everybody is so paranoid about child pornographic content. That can get you put away for a long time and basically ruin your life forever. It also might be a change in ruleset from what some people are used to.

Hypothetically one could get away with writing an erotic literature story that involves entirely underage characters. As I mentioned in my post, there are places online you can find that stuff and while it's very much a grey area...they get away with it.
If I understand Kaitou from previous discussions and his post here correctly, the problem for Chyoa is that it hosts images and if there was no 18+ rule on sex, then it could embolden someone to post a pornographic image of an underage girl or boy and that drops a very much grey area into straight up illegal territory and could get the whole site potentially shut down.
 
I have not, will not, and shall not add any character under the age of 18 in any form of sexual content.
That being said I have no issue with a story adding characters under the age of 18.
With Chyoa I would highly recommend not adding an image of a minor having sex or for that matter any image of a child to prevent any one getting the idea that this site does in fact host minors.

I agree with merkros there are place on the internet where you can still read sexual underage characters. Those areas are very much in the gray area. Lets not place Chyoa in that same category. We are all walking a fine line on a site like this.

With everything I have mentioned I should also say one more thing that may implode or not implode this thread. Underage sex tends to be more of a cultural-social-ethic law issue. Some regions/cultures may accept it while other areas forbid it. What is taboo in one culture maybe appreciated in another. Lest not forget our differences here.
 
merkros said:
If I understand Kaitou from previous discussions and his post here correctly, the problem for Chyoa is that it hosts images and if there was no 18+ rule on sex, then it could embolden someone to post a pornographic image of an underage girl or boy and that drops a very much grey area into straight up illegal territory and could get the whole site potentially shut down.
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Well, that is part of the problem. Most underage pornographers are significantly more careful than that, but there's always that one doofus I suppose. The major problem is unknowingly posting underage pornography. Most of us just pluck images from around the internet, but this means we have no knowledge of the model, its age, or anything about it. If we host an underage image (even if the model looks legal) and have underage characters, we'll be classified as a ring that promotes the creation and distribution of child pornography - no one will believe it was an accident since we didn't shy away from underage characters. However, if we maintain a policy of only permitting 18+ characters, even if an underage image is hosted, we can argue it's an anomaly and hopefully keep the site. I say "hopefully" because CHYOA's legal protections and the actions required of us aren't very well defined.

The legality of it all is very arbitrary. Our personal fates and the fate of CHYOA are influenced by law enforcement agencies that don't have clear instructions for dealing with our faults. The best advice I can give everyone: know who is in your image and when it was taken. I'm almost certain we're not bound by 2257 regulations, but following them and knowing all about our images protects us from getting blasted for underage models.
 
The "PG-13" guidelines I feel is worse than useless. Things that once would have made the movie PG-13 are now showing up in G-Rated movies, and things that once would have been NC-17 at BEST are now considered appropriate for PG-13.

Furthermore, we are not a ratings board: and there is precious little peer review on this site.

Furthermore, we countenance things here that would have any review board you care to name declare a movie X-rated if they didn't arest the cast and crew on felony charges.

Sorry if all that sounds harsh, I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, just being plain-spoken about what is, after all, only my opinion.

However, all that said, I agree that as long as you are, "Essentially 'cockblocking' those who would be interested in that type of stuff." it should be OK to IMPLY or even state that sexual activities took place between minors of a certain maturity level, (primarily physiological,) PROVIDED that no details are given. Having a character say "I lost my virginity at 16," is, I think, simply character development. Taking it further than that must, perforce, be sharply curtailed.
 
Kaitou1412 said:
The best advice I can give everyone: know who is in your image and when it was taken. I'm almost certain we're not bound by 2257 regulations, but following them and knowing all about our images protects us from getting blasted for underage models.
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This is why I mostly use cartoons: who's to say if that Orc is 18 or not? You can argue she's under age all you want, but if she's not CLEARLY a child I can argue that the character in MY story represented by that image is physically and psychologically adult: so quit being a racist bitch and leave the Orc alone...!
 
Nemo of Utopia said:
This is why I mostly use cartoons: who's to say if that Orc is 18 or not?
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Non-human races also create a massive gray area, but being an animated human is not enough. Any animated character under 18, even if fully developed, is still illegal under The PROTECT Act. If I can run an image search and prove that animated human is under 18, we have a problem. Non-human races, new ball game. But oddly, anyone 18+ playing any age they so choose, even younger than 18, is legal.

I don't get it either.
 
Kaitou1412 said:
In other words, the inner exhibitionist is too preoccupied with the ramifications of being seen by a child to find any enjoyment in the act - mortifying, terrifying, but not enticing.
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though on an NSFW site it could be implied that it is meant to arouse the reader, making it a sexual act "involving" the reader.

Loeman said:
If a modern PG-13 movie can get away with a specific story scene and keep its PG-13 rating, we should be able get away with that same scene in our stories - this being a minimum baseline of being reasonable about what is allowed to be written, for sure, without doubt, without overanalyzing specifics.
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I think there is a difference.
A scene within a teenage romance could be considered as totally non-sexual while the exact same scene within a sexual/pornographic context (an NSFW-site) could be considered as arousing/pornographic. So I think these kind of comparisons are inappropriate.

When a movie gets a problem with age, they would just cut out the scene. If it happens by public discussion, they maybe earned enough money from first market to just write it off.
I think it is more difficult on a site like this, especially when the site gets into the focus of some people who are willing to dig deep to find every minimal discrepancy.


I think it is especially difficult as long as "But I know it when I see it" can be a valid judgement
 
Yes... In the few short hours since writing them I've come to rethink the logic of those posts on several levels...

But, on the other hand, PG-13 for gods sake!
*Grumbles*
Its a sick, twisted world we live in.
 
gene.sis said:
When a movie gets a problem with age, they would just cut out the scene. If it happens by public discussion, they maybe earned enough money from first market to just write it off.
I think it is more difficult on a site like this, especially when the site gets into the focus of some people who are willing to dig deep to find every minimal discrepancy.
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Movies and TV shows can also get away with actually showing "Younger" people having sex by casting adult actors or using CGI shenanigans to plant a nude body that isn't their own.

Take Game of Thrones as an example. At the start of the series Daenerys is only like 14 years old, but they can get away with her being naked on screen or having sex, because Emilia Clarke is 30(24 when GoT first started)
 
Not that you're wrong, but I'm pretty sure almost of the GoT TV show *characters* (not actors) are older than their literary counterparts, Danny included.

Like, Ned and Catherine are mid thirties in the books, but they are way older in the show. The characters themselves.

Same with most of the Stark kids etc. and the Lannister twins and lots of other cheracters.

Doesn't invalidate your overall point. Just nitpicking.
 
Loeman said:
Not that you're wrong, but I'm pretty sure almost of the GoT TV show *characters* (not actors) are older than their literary counterparts, Danny included.

Like, Ned and Catherine are mid thirties in the books, but they are way older in the show. The characters themselves.

Same with most of the Stark kids etc. and the Lannister twins and lots of other cheracters.

Doesn't invalidate your overall point. Just nitpicking.
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That's basically what I said. Emilia Clarke plays Daenerys and she is 30(or 24 when the show first started out)
 
merkros said:
That's basically what I said. Emilia Clarke plays Daenerys and she is 30(or 24 when the show first started out)
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No what he said was not that the actors are older but that they changed the characters to be older. It isn't the same thing. You can have a 15 year old character played by a 18 year old actor that looks young, or you can change the character to be 18. A good example of that is Romeo and Juliet that are 13 in the original play are always young adults in modern productions or movies.
 
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