Sharing a consideration

[SeriousBrainDamage]

Hey guys,

a few days ago I had this thought about Mind control/God powers and Freeuse stories.
I don't wont to raise a fuss, but I understand I might as well be, as these kind of stories are rather popular.
I also don't mean to offend anyone by using a label that may or may not feel unwanted.

There's this community of people, Incels as they call themselves, who among other things foster - maybe dream it's the right word - a society where women are socially obliged to satisfy the sexual needs of men.
It feels quite similar to freeuse to me, from the male perspective at least.
Though I don't know how may of these actually use a female perspective, to be fair.

So I was wondering if these fetishes are the pornographic extension of the Incel community, an the resulting stories some sort of manifesto, or it's just an unrelated similarity. Some kind of converging thought.
Or maybe the authors are just unknowingly ahdering to that image.

I put Mind Control and God powers into the bundle because I feel they share with freeuse the total lack of whatsoever obstacle in getting some pussy.

Although I didn't mean to offend anyone, I think it's rather clear from my words I don't held in hight esteem Incels ideas so I won't even try to deny it.
Despite this, I hope in a civil discussion.

 

[insertnamehere]

You don't need to be explicitly a member of the Incel Community in order to hold incel ideas. In that light, I don't doubt there's a correlation between those who enjoy free-use/mind-control stories and those who think they should be morally entitled to sex. After all, most stories on CHYOA are just pipe-dream fantasies, and if you fantasise about women's bodies being public property, then you consider it to be good.

That said, I think a lot of readers don't particularly care about the ethical implications of a free-use world. They don't pay attention to how fictional women feel, but that's not to say they have the same attitude towards real women. That's different to deriving pleasure from the suffering of others. Players of Call of Duty aren't all murderous psychopaths - they just don't care how the nonexistent enemy soldiers feel about getting shot. Understanding the the difference between your actions in fiction and your actions in reality is a matter of maturity.

I'm guessing, then, that there is a significant proportion of free-use/mind-control readers that hold incel beliefs, consciously or otherwise. I say that because it is clear that many users of CHYOA do not have the aforementioned maturity to distinguish fiction from reality. I've read several stories that are very obviously a man's specific fantasy about raping a real woman in their life, often a family member or coworker, with extremely particular details. They almost read like plans or blueprints. Like the author has everything ready to go in the event that rape becomes legal. It's sickening.

 

[DarthQWK]

Well there definitely is a barrier between reality and fiction for some people. Not sure on the percentage though. It can be easy to ignore an aspect of something you are reading although sometimes you see enough that makes you uncomfortable. I enjoy both the idea of being in control and being equals with a girl. I can also enjoy the guy losing control but I like less of the kinks that are involved. In an actual relationship I expect to be equals and then have some play with one of us being in control. How much depends on what both parties are comfortable with. It could just be that one person is on top and doing more of the work.

I think it is more interesting when the powers are limited, the character is still guaranteed to have sex with someone but who, how and when are more in debate. It really depends on the power though. For example if you make everyone(or every girl) a little aroused by being near you then you still have to seduce the girl since she won't have sex with a random person and could easily pick another person if she wanted to.

The powers might just be a way of giving the character some confidence but it also makes it feel like it could be the reader in the situation. Where a rape plan would require them to do things that they could technically do but have reasons not to. I could say yah if I had some super power I could/would do that as well but rape? That would be terrible for the person being raped, it risks me going to jail and I could probably find more reasons if this wasn't enough to convince myself. The power depends on the power but there are some mental gymnastics many people would use to make it acceptable for themselves. For example using magic to change someone's mind would be a terrible thing to do but if it makes them happy when they were previously depressed? Well it couldn't be that bad right? It is just a coincidence that sucking dick is what makes them happy.

 

[MidbossMan]

I'm sure there is some overlap but I'm also sure it's not 100%. I think that's probably the case with any genre on here.

I would agree that a lot of Incel ideas pop up frequently in these stories and that Incels probably appreciate a story where women are as free to use as the Incel ideology says they ought to be, but to be clear, you don't have to be an Incel to write them, nor are you necessarily an Incel if you enjoy them.

There's lots of different reasons to write such a story, even as simple as somebody thinking "if I take the courtship element out I get straight to writing the sex!"

Your mileage may vary as to whether you enjoy such a thing, of course.

Tl:dr, it's surely part of some of them and surely not a part of all of them.

 

[Ben Rosewood]

*grabs popcorn*

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

After all, most stories on CHYOA are just pipe-dream fantasies, and if you fantasise about women's bodies being public property, then you consider it to be good.

I agree with everything else of your post but this. It also seems to be in contrast with the rest, so I'm not sure maybe got it wrong.

If those who write freeuse also think it would be great for the real world to actually work like that, they are closer to be incels than what they know.

I can write about rape, about murder, about blackmail, about kidnapping, about hurting people, but in no way I advocate or justify or even just secretly crave to do such things.
That, I reckon, is because I feel what's on the other side, that of the victim. I recognize women as equals, as beings with feelings, who do hurt and suffer and bleed just like me.

It is not because I have no destructive thoughts.
Like all human beings, sometimes I feel the impulse to hurt and destroy, it is in our nature.
But I have my conscience and empathy to stop me from hurting anyone long before I'm even close to it.

Incels, by declaration of intents, do not think of woman as equal human beings.
That is a huge flaw in the empathic and moral mind process, just like in racism.

I think it is more interesting when the powers are limited, the character is still guaranteed to have sex with someone but who, how and when are more in debate. It really depends on the power though. For example if you make everyone(or every girl) a little aroused by being near you then you still have to seduce the girl since she won't have sex with a random person and could easily pick another person if she wanted to.

This is from the writer angle.

There's lots of different reasons to write such a story, even as simple as somebody thinking "if I take the courtship element out I get straight to writing the sex!"

Also this.

Written erotica is quite diffrente from normal porn.
It emphasizes the plot rather than the graphic elements.
Granted, some write in a very graphic way, I for one most of the time, still it is quite silly, in my opinion, to wirte "gonzo" erotica.
You're losing all the good stuff with that.

Of course, in the end, sex is the point of it, the final goal. Yet the build up, the shadings, the undertones, the countless possibilities of your own immagination...
And what do you do?
You just mind control your sister/mother/co-worker into a bimbo that lives only to suck your cock.
Talking about missing the point...

 

[Gatsha]

Of course, in the end, sex is the point of it, the final goal. Yet the build up, the shadings, the undertones, the countless possibilities of your own immagination...
And what do you do?
You just mind control your sister/mother/co-worker into a bimbo that lives only to suck your cock.
Talking about missing the point...

I can only speak to this from my own experience, but for me as a reader, this can be the point. The sense that before you used the mind control, the person might have had all kinds of thoughts, reservations, and opinions, but after the mind control, they've been transformed into a sexual ideal, In that sense, mind control is just another kind of transformation like body morphing and it's made more meaningful when the person had a character before they were transformed. I think you get the best contrast when the character doing the transforming already had some relationship with or opinion of the character transformed, especially if it is related to or in strong contrast to what they become. I think the "forbidden element," the idea that you've done something taboo, and the "power element," the idea of exerting control, can frequently (not in every case) be contributors to the excitement that comes from this sort of story.

Frankly, I rarely see it as a means to an end. More often, it is centered as a fetish in the story... So, to be clear, mind controlling someone into a bimbo to suck you off can be lazy storytelling, but there is (or, ideally, would be) a distinct difference between a story where a man meets a sex addict and one where a man uses mind control to turn someone he knows into a sex addict. The difference is one is the appeal to the fetish of mind control. Keep in mind that any of those mind control writers could just as easily choose to write a story where a guy just happens to work in a fantasy workplace where every coworker wants to suck him off, or they could write a story where a woman in the workplace becomes naturally and realistically sexually attracted to the guy and then wants to suck him off (or, well, some of them could, anyway). They don't do that because the mind control isn't just a vehicle; it's often the point. The fetish itself.

Just like any other fetish writing, the author's originality of topic, flourishes, effort, and creativity will make the scenario more or less interesting. CHYOA has plenty of examples of both ends of that spectrum. The stories that jump straight to the author bending everyone in their vicinity to their will immediately tend to be the less interesting for me personally, but I'm also not put here to be the judge of anyone's taste.

For what it's worth, I also definitely don't take it as a given that everyone who reads/writes on CHYOA is as interested in "the build up, the shadings, the undertones, the countless possibilities of your own imagination" as you or I seem to consider ourselves to be. I definitely assume there are people who want to skip past the build up and straight to a scene matching their interests that is written evocatively enough that they can get a fap off of it... Perhaps incorrectly, I also assume such a person will be less interested in talking about stories on the forum.

 

[brevdravis]

Well, this is how I think of it...
If your fantasy is how you'll take over the world, change everything for the better, and you have a step by step plan to do so...

You just saved a Bond Movie writer about three hours of Villain design time. If the character insists that everyone bow down and worship him as well, world building is out of the way too!

I mean, there's TONS of people who've thought out what happens in that cell between Vader and Leia... and adding in he's her father... even creepier. But, If you just changed Star Wars' world rules to a Free use story where Leia has no resistance to vaders mind control... there's all the conflict out of the way, and the fourth moon of Yavin's nice and blasted while Luke, Han, Two Droids and A Wookie try to figure out who gave them the fake delivery address.

Some folks might go for that. But... not really my thang these days. Once you've blown up a planet once, I mean, you have to move on to blowing up Stars, then Galaxies, and After a while the number of kids just gets ridiculous, and you end up with having to execute your sons so they don't inherit your power.... Uhm... well, actually now this is starting to be slightly interesting... because there's some conflict there... but perhaps that's taking it a bit too far, when all somebody really wants to do is bang a gal in a white dress while dressed up as Dark Helmut. (Looking at you revenge of the nerds.)

 

[insertnamehere]

I mean, there's TONS of people who've thought out what happens in that cell between Vader and Leia... and adding in he's her father... even creepier. But, If you just changed Star Wars' world rules to a Free use story where Leia has no resistance to vaders mind control... there's all the conflict out of the way, and the fourth moon of Yavin's nice and blasted while Luke, Han, Two Droids and A Wookie try to figure out who gave them the fake delivery address.

Some folks might go for that. But... not really my thang these days. Once you've blown up a planet once, I mean, you have to move on to blowing up Stars, then Galaxies, and After a while the number of kids just gets ridiculous, and you end up with having to execute your sons so they don't inherit your power.... Uhm... well, actually now this is starting to be slightly interesting... because there's some conflict there... but perhaps that's taking it a bit too far, when all somebody really wants to do is bang a gal in a white dress while dressed up as Dark Helmut. (Looking at you revenge of the nerds.)

In other words, Greek mythology.

I agree with everything else of your post but this. It also seems to be in contrast with the rest, so I'm not sure maybe got it wrong.

If those who write freeuse also think it would be great for the real world to actually work like that, they are closer to be incels than what they know.

I can write about rape, about murder, about blackmail, about kidnapping, about hurting people, but in no way I advocate or justify or even just secretly crave to do such things.
That, I reckon, is because I feel what's on the other side, that of the victim. I recognize women as equals, as beings with feelings, who do hurt and suffer and bleed just like me.

But if you go out of your way to frame rape, murder, blackmail, and kidnapping to be good things, then on some subconscious level you actually believe they are good. If you didn't, then you wouldn't go to the effort of pretending you do. You can write about such evil things all you like, but if your writing actively attempts to persuade the reader that they are acceptable, then your behaviour is perfectly aligned with that of an incel.

 

[Gatsha]

But if you go out of your way to frame rape, murder, blackmail, and kidnapping to be good things, then on some subconscious level you actually believe they are good. If you didn't, then you wouldn't go to the effort of pretending you do. You can write about such evil things all you like, but if your writing actively attempts to persuade the reader that they are acceptable, then your behaviour is perfectly aligned with that of an incel.

I agree with SeriousBrainDamage's take on this matter.

For my own take, the tricky part is to understand and distinguish if the writer is treating it as a fantasy or legitimately holds the view in their framing. There are different levels of this.

Assuming we are considering a mind controlled person being made to have sex to be rape, clearly a bad thing, I'd advise there are gradient levels of how it can be framed in the story as a "good" thing or not. Note that the examples I give below basically apply to all non-consent in my mind, not just mind control, so I'm basically going to discuss the two interchangeably.

There are examples where the viewpoint or story judges the decision. This would indicate to me the writer holds this fetish, but clearly understands and expects the reader to understand that such a thing is unacceptable in real life. This would be indicated by self-loathing or internal conflict by the character doing the controlling for his decision, or clear framing of him as a villain; by the character meeting just desserts for his decision; or, even, by simply having an omniscient narrator clearly denounce the character doing the controlling.

Sometimes, you'll see examples the other way. The author describes the protagonist as heroic, or even just an everyman, doing "what anyone would do in this situation" without offering any pushback on that; or the person describes the controlled as "getting what they deserve" by being controlled and raped; etc. These are examples where the author tips their hands that they would see this as a "good" world state.

And I think there are ways to write a story that doesn't cast either way... Although i would say generally not casting a judgment should be taken as treating it as "good". An example that comes to mind is a story where a stage magician, presented to the reader without much background, hypnotizes a woman to perform for an audience. The author isn't explicitly saying whether he sees that as good or bad, but by inviting the reader to read and masturbate to it without having the audience rise up against the hypnotist, without having the story describe him as a villain, etc., you'd be able to infer as a reader "the story is treating this happening as good."

But even once you know the story is saying that, I think it's unfair to accuse the writer of personally harboring Incel viewpoints. Basically, I think that the author saying "this is sexy" is distinct from them saying "this is good." They can overlap, but they don't have to. Even if they don't make their views explicit, I don't think the evidence is there to accuse mind control (or rape fantasy) writers of having the same tendencies as Incels (unless they are coming right out with it, like in some of the framing devices I mentioned above).

As a side note, for better or worse, I think there are writers here who try to take on viewpoints they don't have or sexual fetishes they don't personally have as a challenge to themselves, to court a fan base, to experiment in what they consider an anonymous and consequenceless arena, or in an attempt to make their own story well-rounded... If you try to judge every writer's worldview or even something as innocuous as their sexual preferences based on their (largely anonymous!) fiction writing, I think you'll inevitably end up with some miscategorizations. That is splitting hairs a bit though, and I acknowledge saying "this person's story has an Incel worldview" would still 9 times out of 10 overlap with "this person, at least at the time they wrote this, was entertaining an Incel worldview."

 

[DarthQWK]

I feel like I recently wrote a scene, that is 100% rape, mainly for the fetish’s involved. I didn’t consider having the character be concerned, mention it from a narrator view or any other way. In fact it could seem like a good thing since there is some revenge taking place.

I do have a solution that I like though. I think I will have the MC tell another character about the stuff he has done and then she will be upset when she hears about the rape. I don’t think he would straight up tell her but I can probably find a way to get her to indirectly find out while talking.

Also I personally find that stuff that pushes my personal boundaries turns me on. So it is partly because I think something is wrong that it turns me on. There are other things that don’t push my boundaries that turn me on as well.

 

[Sune's Kiss]

I'm not too familiar with the God power and Freeuse stories. Are there many Goddess power and/or Freeuse stories where women freely use a man out there in CHYOA?

 

[Swallows999]

As one of those mind control/free use writers, I agree that there has to be some writers who do hold strong incel beliefs, but I’d like to be optimistic and hope that most of us don't and are just interested in the fetish. For me, I'm a fan of a lot of non-consent in general: I would never actually want to be abducted by women on the streets and forced into sexual slavery or have my testicles crushed, just as much as I would never want some schmuck running around mind-controlling women into sex or women being humiliated by being stripped naked in public. (ENF) Still, I write about it because for some reason I think it's sexy.

Of course, in the end, sex is the point of it, the final goal. Yet the build up, the shadings, the undertones, the countless possibilities of your own immagination...
And what do you do?
You just mind control your sister/mother/co-worker into a bimbo that lives only to suck your cock.

Talking about missing the point...

I personally dislike most erotic stories that try to wine and dine you- if the build-up is too long, I check out and I feel disappointed for wasting my time. This is reflected in my own writing, which is just a constant barrage of sex after some initial exposition. It caters to like-minded readers I guess, different sorts of people and all that.

If you try to judge every writer's worldview or even something as innocuous as their sexual preferences based on their (largely anonymous!) fiction writing, I think you'll inevitably end up with some miscategorizations.

On a related topic, I've written about incest in my stories, which is something I'm not particularly into. I have similar hopes that most people would never actually commit real incest, but enjoy reading it for their own personal reasons.

 

[Swallows999]

I'm not too familiar with the God power and Freeuse stories. Are there many Goddess power and/or Freeuse stories where women freely use a man out there in CHYOA?

I've been told one of my stories could be classified as reverse free-use: https://chyoa.com/story/Forced-Ejaculation-Anthology.18098

 

[Sune's Kiss]

It's good to see that it's not totally a one-way street Swallows999, thanks for sharing.

I suspect the mind control, god-power, and free use stories more-or-less take dominance/submission to their extremes.

In other words, Greek mythology.

A Greek god will fuck anything. Pasiphaë banged a white bull, and now there's a minotaur roaming the labyrinth...

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

I can only speak to this from my own experience, but for me as a reader, this can be the point. The sense that before you used the mind control, the person might have had all kinds of thoughts, reservations, and opinions, but after the mind control, they've been transformed into a sexual ideal, In that sense, mind control is just another kind of transformation like body morphing and it's made more meaningful when the person had a character before they were transformed. I think you get the best contrast when the character doing the transforming already had some relationship with or opinion of the character transformed, especially if it is related to or in strong contrast to what they become. I think the "forbidden element," the idea that you've done something taboo, and the "power element," the idea of exerting control, can frequently (not in every case) be contributors to the excitement that comes from this sort of story.

I get this, I get the strong contrast and the forbidden element, as you say. I can safely say it is something I like too in most circimstances, but I feel that with mind control you have no real transition, it's all too sudden and immediate. Once the mind control is on, once the deed is consumed, what is really left?
But I'm digressing now, I can understand mind control being the point and not a way to get easy sex.

But if you go out of your way to frame rape, murder, blackmail, and kidnapping to be good things, then on some subconscious level you actually believe they are good. If you didn't, then you wouldn't go to the effort of pretending you do. You can write about such evil things all you like, but if your writing actively attempts to persuade the reader that they are acceptable, then your behaviour is perfectly aligned with that of an incel.

But even once you know the story is saying that, I think it's unfair to accuse the writer of personally harboring Incel viewpoints. Basically, I think that the author saying "this is sexy" is distinct from them saying "this is good." They can overlap, but they don't have to. Even if they don't make their views explicit, I don't think the evidence is there to accuse mind control (or rape fantasy) writers of having the same tendencies as Incels (unless they are coming right out with it, like in some of the framing devices I mentioned above).

I don't belive in subconscious. Either you do things, think things, like things or you don't. What's behind the curtain doesn't matter, only what goes on the stage.

I'll try to not play dumb too much, but I really don't understand why no one accuses a writer who writes crime stories of being a closet serial killer, or a film director who directs a movie about the first world war to secretly get off to amputated people.
But to be a potential rapist is considered a logical assumption for someone who writes of non-consent sex.

Insertnamehere, I think Gatsha hit the point. The author simply recognizes the erotic value of that specific situation, despite it being unwholesome.

-I watch the fiction Dexter, I enjoy it, the planning, the hunt, the killings.
Do I want more people to get killed by serial killers? No.

-I watch the The Dark Knight, I enjoy it. I like the fights, I root for the guy with the mask and the husky voice, even when he breaks arms and legs like breadsicks.
Would I vote for a law permitting vigilantes to go around wearing masks, administering justice instead of police? Nope.

-I watch The girl with the dragon tattoo, I enjoy it. I feel arousal watching the rape scene, among other things.
Do I feel that rape is good and should be legalized?
Guess the answer...

I think I've just demostrated I understand it may be foul play to inquire about people's belief from what they write and like.
I did it for free use because it is essentialy an utopia, and utopias in writing are usually the mean to advocate one's social and political views.
Maybe I'm just using double standards.

 

[insertnamehere]

Insertnamehere, I think Gatsha hit the point. The author simply recognizes the erotic value of that specific situation, despite it being unwholesome.

Basically, I think that the author saying "this is sexy" is distinct from them saying "this is good."

Yeah, okay, you've both convinced me. You can fantasise about a scenario without actually desiring it.

I think free use worlds happen to align with incel beliefs, but I suppose free use stories on CHYOA don't necessarily originate from that place.

 

[brevdravis]

A Greek god will fuck anything. Pasiphaë banged a white bull, and now there's a minotaur roaming the labyrinth...

Unfortunately, due to CHYOA Rules, We will need to specify that the White Bull was in fact two guys in a costume. There are very easy ways to work scenes like that in.

Gotta love Shapeshifting as far as its flexibility for getting away with stuff.

 

[Sune's Kiss]

I dunno, I think a lot of the mind control, free use, and God-mode porn is a case of "Wouldn't it be nice if we had the Konami code of seduction?"

I feel it's a simple power fantasy.

Unfortunately, due to CHYOA Rules, We will need to specify that the White Bull was in fact two guys in a costume. There are very easy ways to work scenes like that in.

For the sake of equal opportunity can the two guys in a white bull costume be three midgets? I know it's an unpaid gig, but I'm sure they'd appreciate the exposure.

 

[brevdravis]

I dunno, I think a lot of the mind control, free use, and God-mode porn is a case of "Wouldn't it be nice if we had the Konami code of seduction?"

I feel it's a simple power fantasy.



For the sake of equal opportunity can the two guys in a white bull costume be three midgets? I know it's an unpaid gig, but I'm sure they'd appreciate the exposure.

Well, if you made it four midgets, you're into Norse Mythology... And I don't know about you, but since Sleipnir is a child of Loki, I would say that automatically counts as a sentient being and thus eliminates the need for the midgets.
But if you want the midgets, you can HAVE the midgets. Because just like Magrathea, whatever your tastes, we can cater to them. We are not proud.

Course, as far as the power fantasy thing goes... I just find that you see it all the time in "End Game" states of any particular story. Take a look at any RPG book, and guarantee you that the statistics for characters, weapons, and any game related stuff in the last books will be an order of magnitude higher than those in the first books. Some folks just don't want to put in the grind to get to the end game. They want to jump in at the end with all the cool stuff that was built up over years of game time.

Which I would understand if you thought of trying to get the most "Concentrated" experience. Everything boiled down to the "Best Bits" like how William Goldman did "The Princess Bride" by essentially ripping out all the long political commentary and introspection from nineteenth century Romance Novels. Porn usually is just a rip off of an established property with the "Boring" parts taken out, and replaced with stuff that the director wants to see... which tells you a lot about the guy paying to have the porn made than anything else.

Nothing against modern films, but they do the same thing. Yank out all the pauses and "Dull" bits, leaving you with a concentrated experience that leaves you wanting more. I mean, Moby Dick is a BORING as fuck book, half the time. It's pretty obvious to me at least that Melville never fucking reread his own work, except for the gay love affair with the harpooner at the start. That part he reread. A LOT.

I on the other hand... like rereading weird puzzles. So I put a lot of them in my stories. Piers Anthony likes games and little girls. He puts a lot of them in his stories. Robert A. Heinlein liked hot redheads and incest and infected an entire generation of military fanboys. Stephen King likes blowing up people and forcing mutilation. Howard Philips Lovecraft was a severe depressive who never wanted to leave his house. Tom Clancy probably jerked off over military manuals with the amount of detail he put into his books.

I think folks should just write what they want to read. Just say what you think. That way I can point to the parts in my story you want to read, and you can help me avoid the parts in yours I don't want to read."