Should incest (between consenting adults) REALLY be illegal?

1) Scientifically proven genetic problems of possible children, there are far smaller then majority believe but they are very real. Before you say "but people with genetic illnesses", that one is different. Because disallowing to procreate with a specific person (several persons) and disallowing to procreate with anyone is not the same thing at all

2) Parent\Child relationships are very problematic. Consent is a very vague thing there because children are literally programmed to respect parents and obey them + Most people depend on their parents financially long past 18.
To a lesser extent (and depending on culture of a nation) Same goes for younger\older sibling relationships

3) You are making incest with minors far easier. All that abusers need to do is to say that they started to have sex past 18. Try to prove that it isn't true.

4) If sex between consenting adults will be fine and everything... How will you explain two siblings, aged, let's say 13 and 15, that they really shouldn't fuck because it can result in a psychological trauma and\or ruin their relationships? And between sibling teenagers things can go much nastier than consensual sex.


And please, don't compare this with homosexual sex because the only reason for banning that one was something like THIS IS AN ABOMINATION IN THE EYES OF GOD. There are zero rational arguments how society can benefit from homosexual sex being illegal.

 

Having a relationship doesn't mean you must have children.
And the same risks apply to all people who have severe genetic diseases. Do you tell them not to have children? Do you tell them not to have relationships?

The same applies to any relationship where one person is financial or emotional dominant.
There is no difference.

If it isn't consensual, it is rape anyway.
The same applies to any abuse of minors.
There's no difference.

I doubt that there would be any worse psychological trauma than any other breakup would cause.
Is there any data that their family relationship would be ruined if they broke up a romantic relationship?

Adults are free to decide if they want to enter into a relationship that might have bad consequences for them.

The reason for banning incest is most likely based on the same institution.

Why would you restrict the rights of individual persons without having a benefit for society?

 

1) English isn't my native language but I think was pretty clear. "You can't have children with that one man\woman (but free to have with billions of others) " and "You can't have children at all" are very different limitations

2) You have cherrypicked a minor part of financial dependency and ignored the major part of upbringing programming obedience to the parent. This is not an honest way to have a discussion.

3) You seem to live in a magical world where we have some kind of a magical device that can determine consent or lack of it. We don't have it. So, we should avoid creating situations that look like consensual but may be very well not be one. Because Incest has a tendency to be non-consensual we should ban it. The cost of doing so is minimal.

4) You see, when two persons have sexual relationships and have a painful break-up, it means that two random people will avoid each other. If the same happens between siblings, that means they have lost not some random person but a sibling while also hurting parents and other relatives. If you can't see how this is bad, you should work on your emotional awareness.

Why would you restrict the rights of individual persons without having a benefit for society?
I wouldn't but preventing incest is beneficial for society because it reduces the number of de-facto rapes and other unhealthy relationships

 

What evidence do you have to suggest that the legalisation of homosexuality occured despite societal standards? In any case, it's a bad comparison with incest; homosexual relationships lack a tendency to be problematic, which is the primary issue with incestual relationships.

Yep, perfect examples of places where incest is considered ethically acceptable. That's their choice, and at 10% of all countries, it's not a popular one at all. Additionally, you will find that does not make incest common nor is it significantly less taboo, which counters your above point.

There is the issue. That definition of wrong is not an empirical, universal one; it is one you have personally devised for yourself. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not one that should be enforced upon others simply because you feel really strongly that it is true. You cannot see harm in the issue, but everyone else can.

It is not. It is based on the arguments presented in this thread (among other things).

 

In my country, Ukraine, incest between adults is perfectly legal. Those who openly practice will be considered perverts but there is no law that bans it in any way. The only limitation is that close relatives can't have a legal marriage but living together and having kids is fine. I'd very much prefer parent-child relationships being strictly illegal especially because our age of consent is 16.

@gene.sis
Consider this. Let's imagine there is a religious cult that believes that daughters must marry their fathers as soon as they reach 18 (or that their first child must be from their father). Will it be consensual by the legal definition of that word? Sure! But in fact, girls will be indoctrinated into that belief and this will be anything but true consent. Will it result in genetic deceases? Oh yes, few generations of this practice will result in a number of people who are seriously sick from birth. You are advocating for allowing shit like this even if your intention is to help those rare examples of healthy romantic relations between close relatives.

 

English isn't my first language as well.
I indeed skipped a part of your sentence.

But still: Having a relationship doesn't mean you must have children.

And there is no difference in if you disallow procreation with one person or all.
There are a bunch of incompatible couples out there with a high chance of disabled children. So in your opinion, they should be tested and if they are not compatible, it should be forbidden for them to have children.

You are simply not treating them the same way. (This violates Human Rights)

I also mentioned emotional dominance. This can be done with any person who is vulnerable.

So in your world where you can't see any hints, perpetrators of abusive relationships don't get charged because you can't see the abuse.
You can identify abusive incestuous relationships the same way as you can identify abusive non-incestuous relationships.

Do you actually know how a relationship would develop if the two persons have to live together after the breakup? I mean, it is not unheard that there are people who can be friends again after a breakup, even if they don't live together. This is even more common with younger people as they might not want to crash their social environment (clique)

You say, it would reduce the numbers but it just hides the crime.
So yes, the numbers in the official statistics might be lower but the actual number of victims is equal or even higher.

To be an adult you must have reached the age of majority, not the age of consent. In most countries, this is 18.
Besides, a lot of countries restrict the legality of relationships between minors who already are of the age of consent and adults and define a maximal age difference.

If you MUST marry someone, the decision to marry isn't consensual at all. (This would violate Human Rights)

If you consider a religious cult where everyone who turns 18 has to marry a member who is at least 40, you have the very same situation. They will be indoctrinated into the same belief and it isn't consensual at all.

From my own experience, I can tell that there is still a big share of people who dislike the existence of gay people. They just don't voice it publicly anymore.

That's places there incest is not prohibited by the law.
And I never said that incest should be made more common. It is also unlikely that it becomes common as most siblings can't stand each other even without having a relationship.
I only say that the persons who are in the situation shouldn't be criminalized for their feelings.

So what is the empirical, universal definition of wrong?

I can even see harm in criminalizing people and in making them live in fear, but you can't.

There is research that the prohibition of incest has been issued by the church and that the process changed western society. (Though not necessarily to the worse.)

 

Ehm.... Nope. If you have no option to refuse then it is a violation of human rights. If hypothetical daughter from this hypothetical cult is raised in this way and believes that it is her holy duty she will agree even she'll have an option to refuse.

No, no, no. It will be consensual by any legal definition of the word. And, frankly speaking, such religious rule isn't even really harmful. If some young woman believes that she should marry a 40+ year old because it is a will of God, she has a huge choice.
Incest thing is very different on so many levels, from ugly practice of raising your daughter to be your ideal wife to genetic problems that will come after few generations of such practice

Failed romantic relationships can end in a strong friendship. It is irrelevant. We are talking about avoiding unnecessary risks instead of pretending that every case will end in a perfect way. Sex between emotiomally immature siblings is a huge unneccesary risk. And it will happen much more often if incest between adults will somehow become a social norm.

No. If you can fuck (or worse marry) your daughter legally it is much harder to prove that she isn't consenting. It is like legal prostitution, it increases the number of women who are forced to work in the sex industry against their will.
Also, there is unknown, likely large ammount of people who are close to dominating their close relatives in one way or another. Incest being illegal\immoral is a barrier for them


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You want to help that very rare cases when incest relationships are actually healthy, but simply unusual? OK. Develop a procedure to create exceptions.

Something like:
After closely related persons A and B make a request to allow them to have legal relations, then a qualified mental health professional checks if they are both mature enough, if both are consenting, if there is no financial or other kind of dependency, etc.

 

That makes incest between consenting adults legal.
That is the only question of this entire thread.

 

Well, if this kind of procedure will be adopted, I have zero objections for this kind of legality\acceptability.

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I am actually curious how strictly it is enforced in the US, somehow I fail to believe that the state gives a fuck unless there is something really nasty between close relatives