Simulating Random Outcomes

[porneia]

With my apologizes, once a year I ask this question as per my quest to try to simulate a game like strip poker where the reader is faced with an unknown outcome (i.e. winning or losing the game is not a given).

Any suggestions?

Several come to mind but none is what I am fully looking for.

1) Leave chapter titles unlabeled, such as with several "???".
Of course this only works for the first time through.

2) Us conditions by giving the reader's character several different skills at different levels.
So a high "bluff skill" might give victory in a certain chapter while a high "card counting skill" will not.
This is not truly random and soon becomes very complicated to write.

3) Find a better game to simulate then something like poker, such as a trivia challenge.
This of course can be easily circumvented by using google.
Besides I really want to write a strip poker story!

4) Have the reader roll a dice. (Thanks to MidbossMan!)

5) Having a random number generator in conditions would solve the problem but from what I have heard this is very difficult to add to the chyoa site.

Any other suggestions?

Thank you and happy New Year!

 

[MidbossMan]

I think the most practical way to do it is to include a random number generator and have the person make their own roll, then go to the chapter indicated that roll. The simpler the game you make the better, though. Maybe something like high/low, dice, or roulette?

I did trial a version of this another writer was doing where they had lots of seemingly insignificant choices up front that all add up behind the scenes to a "seed" determining how your game of chance goes.

The more choices, the more work it'll be to write, so I'd definitely go for a simple type of game if you can.

Good luck!

 

[gene.sis]

Find a better game to simulate then something like poker

I would go for letting the reader decide on if they want to play the current hand "aggressive", "defensive", or [...]. That would work if the other characters aren't pros.
(I recommend using one choice for the play of a whole hand. The combination of players and the predetermined luck would decide how many chips you gain or lose. Playing "one loss - one item" is rather pointless as the decisions don't really impact the outcome. (So it would be like lowest card strips.) But as you can't do calculations at the moment, you should internally measure it as fractions of a full stack. If you have 4 players, I would go for 9 (15). If someone's number drop below 1, they have to strip. Then add 9 (15) to their stack number. At the same time, subtract 3 (5) from all other stacks. If someone drops below 1, they have to strip as well. (Or after the next game.))

I did trial a version of this another writer was doing where they had lots of seemingly insignificant choices up front that all add up behind the scenes to a "seed" determining how your game of chance goes.

That's also a way to do it. I think there is a thread on the forum that describes it.
It might also be used as a starting point.

You could also use some cheating determinator... if someone always hits the best option, the user might run out of luck.

 

[Zeebop]

For card games like poker, the decision usually comes down to what cards to draw and discard. If you keep it to that ("Draw one" or "Discard three") you can keep the actual outcome out of the title. I do that for a lot of my poker scenes in LLNO.

This of course only works if you're actually interested in the card game, as opposed to "win or lose."

 

[merkros]

it might sound silly, but the old choose your own adventure books often simply had the reader roll a dice to simulate randomness and then have them pick a chapter depending on their success/failure. For poker, you could have the player grab their own deck of cards for a similar effect. This would be pretty easy to cheat, but its pretty easy to cheat regardless so...

 

[porneia]

have the person make their own roll, then go to the chapter indicated that roll. The simpler the game you make the better, though. Maybe something like high/low, dice, or roulette?

Thank you! I forgot to include having the reader roll a dice.

The problem with that, at least for me, is that cheating is very easy. What makes a game of chance so sexy is that there might be no way out of losing. You really want to win but you are slowly forced to strip by your arrogant rival.

I did not think about having it be a dice game in the story, however. That might work. The problem is only the human player can roll, if one wants to stay in "character." (Rolling for the computer player would take away the illusion.) I will have to ponder this more. Thanks again.

 

[porneia]

I recommend using one choice for the play of a whole hand. The combination of players and the predetermined luck would decide how many chips you gain or lose. Playing "one loss - one item" is rather pointless as the decisions don't really impact the outcome. (So it would be like lowest card strips.) But as you can't do calculations at the moment, you should internally measure it as fractions of a full stack. If you have 4 players, I would go for 9 (15). If someone's number drop below 1, they have to strip. Then add 9 (15) to their stack number. At the same time, subtract 3 (5) from all other stacks. If someone drops below 1, they have to strip as well. (Or after the next game.)

As usual my friend you are playing 3D underwater blindfolded chess while I am struggling to figure out Tic-Tac-Toe. I am not following at all what you are suggesting. Let me ask this, would your suggestion work if there were only two players?

 

[porneia]

you can keep the actual outcome out of the title. I do that for a lot of my poker scenes in LLNO.

Thank you. Are you talking about this section of your story?
https://chyoa.com/chapter/Cards.432145

 

[Zeebop]

Yes. The crux of a poker game are the decisions that the player makes as much as the final reveal. Lois Lane always knows what her cards are, it's a question of how she plays her hand - and regardless of how she plays, what her opponent's cards are. In my case, I always work out the hands ahead of time with https://deck.of.cards/ - and I try to keep the excitement up by emphasizing the psychology and tension of the scenes, changing the stakes, etc.

 

[gene.sis]

As usually my friend you are playing 3D underwater blindfolded chess while I am struggling to figure out Tic-Tac-Toe. I am not following at all what you are suggesting. Like me ask this, would your suggestion work if there were only two players?

^^
The short answer is... yes.

The long answer is... it all comes down to what you want to achieve.

If you play poker and always show the cards, it is not much different from simply rolling a dice.
In Texas Hold'em (and other variants) there is no change in the initial cards.
In Draw poker, you can decide how many cards you discard but if you always see the showdown, you should always aim for a pair (or three of a kind, two pair). If you have nothing on your hand, you would throw away the three lowest cards. If you already have a pair, you would keep the pair and the highest card. It doesn't make much sense to go for another poker hand unless you already have it after dealing the cards.
(If you have 4 cards for an open-ended straight, only 8 cards would complete the straight and you have only 1 card to draw. If you have two high cards, only 6 cards would make you a pair but you can draw 3 of them.)

So the odds of winning should always be roughly the same.
That means you could simply flip a coin to determine who wins.

If you play poker, you have chips. And the betting makes the difference as you can fold before the showdown or force the opponent to fold with a good hand or just a bluff. (In a game where you always see a showdown, there is no point in bluffing.)

I recommend using one choice for the play of a whole hand.

That basically means you have one decision "How aggressive do you want to play?" (or sth)
The single choice would then determine the reader's hand and the NPC's hand and would lead to the outcome.

If you have 5 levels of aggressiveness, there could be 5 different outcomes, e.g.
- won 2 chips
- won 8 chips
- won 2 chips
- lost 4 chips
- lost 2 chips
(Chips shouldn't be the actual number of chips. If you play a game with 100 chips for each player, go down to 10.)

The randomness of this approach is that the reader chooses an option that doesn't give away the outcome.
Next hand, the distribution of won and lost chips would be entirely different.
Though it would also possible to add hints to the chapter content that gives the reader an idea of how the other player would play. So they could "adjust their strategy." (So instead of telling how aggressive you play, you could also ask to estimate the other player's aggressiveness.)

(To work against cheating, you could have a counter that adds to a variable. If the (cheating) reader reaches a certain number, they will have a losing streak. I could give a more detailed explanation if someone is interested.)

So after each game, you add/subtract a full stack (the number of chips everyone had in the beginning) and if someone drops below 0, they have to strip. If the number is below 0 doesn't matter. In the showdown description, you could simply say that they go all in. The negative value is then a disadvantage for the next game where you add a full stack to the loser and retract a full stack from the winner. (If you have 4 players, 3 players have to give each a third stack to the 4th player. That's what I meant with the numbers.)
You could also just add a full stack to the loser and don't subtract one from the winner. This way, the winner has already an advantage over the loser. This would make also lead to more played hands before someone has to strip. (There could be adjustments to work around that. More information if necessary.)


So it depends on what you want to achieve.

 

[porneia]

The crux of a poker game are the decisions that the player makes as much as the final reveal.

I have reread your poker section a few times and like what you did. I notice you put "Lois wins" or "Lois loses" in the titles, I might remove that. Then maybe I might combined that with some of gene.sis' suggestions to created a greater sense of true gambling, which is the end goal.

 

[porneia]

General question for everyone: With the current parameters of the chyoa system what game would you recommend that would best give a feel of real competition? (Poker, Blackjack, War, Darts, Liar's Dice, Monopoly, Trivia Pursuit, something else?)

 

[Zeebop]

Trivial Pursuit. It would be easy to count tokens and trivial to have wrong answers vs. right answers. However, it does mean generating a lot of questions and answers.

 

[insertnamehere]

An RNG is still in the works, as far as I know, for the next CHYOA version.

Trivial Pursuit. It would be easy to count tokens and trivial to have wrong answers vs. right answers. However, it does mean generating a lot of questions and answers.

You could take questions from an actual copy of Trivial Pursuit. I would recommend a kid's version, since they're usually multiple choice, and most readers won't want to suddenly have to think deeply while they're in the middle of an erotic scene.

You could also flip the strip aspect of the game to be a reward instead of a punishment. When someone gets a question right, instead of getting to roll again, they can select any one article of clothing an opponent is wearing and have them remove it. In a two player game, maybe replace pie pieces with this reward in order to balance the game's pace.

General question for everyone: With the current parameters of the chyoa system what game would you recommend that would best give a feel of real competition? (Poker, Blackjack, War, Darts, Liar's Dice, Monopoly, Trivia Pursuit, something else?)

Don't use Monopoly. Nearly every aspect of the game is randomly determined - the occasional decisions you make have no real bearing on the outcome. In fact, Monopoly was originally designed to be unfun to play, in order to demonstrate that an economic system with few restraints is inherently unstable and causes inequality. The game's popularity only really stems from its cultural pervasiveness, in a sort of Streisand effect. Many circles regard it as the worst board game ever printed (those circles being the type of people that actually bother ranking board games in the first place). I also don't believe I've ever met someone who actually knows how to play Monopoly according to the rules given in the box. The rules are generally passed down from parent to child, and because of this, any two given people rarely agree on how to play. What happens when you land on free parking? What happens when you decline buying a property? How do you get out of jail? As a result, most of your readers will disagree with you on the rules for Monopoly, and be confused by the descriptions and choices you give them.

I could write a book on why Monopoly sucks.

 

[Zeebop]

I have reread your poker section a few times and like what you did. I notice you put "Lois wins" or "Lois loses" in the titles, I might remove that. Then maybe I might combined that with some of gene.sis' suggestions to created a greater sense of true gambling, which is the end goal.

Yes, I wasn't suggesting you copy what I was doing exactly, just suggesting a general approach.

 

[gene.sis]

You could take questions from an actual copy of Trivial Pursuit.

Rewording the question and replacing the wrong answers might be good if you do that.

You could also flip the strip aspect of the game to be a reward instead of a punishment.

This of course can be easily circumvented by using google.

You could also flip around the decision.
So the reader chooses from 3 to 5 questions. (You could also remove the used question and add 3 new questions each round. If the opponent has answered more questions wrong, the ratio of opponent-friendly questions will be higher. And the other way around if the opponent has answered more questions wrong. You could also swap the outcome of some questions during the game. E.g. the opponent might be too nervous to get certain questions right after their tits are out.)
The opponent has to answer the question. If you dropped some hints about the opponent's strengths, the reader might use them to choose questions the opponent can't answer. Additionally, some surprisingly correct answers might lead to some interesting explanations from the opponent why they knew the answer.
The opponent's answer is wrong -> the opponent has to strip.
The opponent's answer is right -> the reader has to strip.

In a two player game, maybe replace pie pieces with this reward in order to balance the game's pace.

Pie pieces? Like you need to lose 3 tokens before you have to strip? In that case, it would also be possible to offer a different number of points for a piece of clothing. That way, you could also balance different sets of clothing. E.g. guy: briefs (4), pants (2), shirt (3); girl: panties (4), dress (5). It could also be used to give one of the players an advantage.

Don't use Monopoly. Nearly every aspect of the game is randomly determined - the occasional decisions you make have no real bearing on the outcome.

Without disagreeing with the other notes about Monopoly, I actually think it could be a good choice. (Though it doesn't rely on skills so it's not really a competition.)
A disadvantage could be that such games would be rather long. On the other hand, that makes it more difficult to cheat.
To make it easier and to avoid rule problems, you might want to use your own rules and a smaller board. (E.g. 4 fields per side and the edges for special fields.)
You would use predefined numbers for the dice rolls. So the rolls for player 1 would be 2, 5, 3, 6, 2, 1, and so on. Depending on possible events that are based on decisions, you should skip some of the numbers. This changes the order of fields the players will land on and makes it way harder to predict the overall outcome.
The structure should also be rather easy and you could work with many hub chapters. (Don't get me wrong... it will always be a lot of work to create a complex game!)
(E.g. you define the current field with a number variable "field_A" (A for player 1). The number goes from 1 to 20 as there are 20 fields. In the "Roll the dice" chapter you set the number variable "roll_A" to the roll and add the number to the variable "field_A". Then, have a link for every field from 1 to 20 (20 is the Go field where you might get double money). If "field_A" > 20, you add the respective money and subtract 20 from "field_A".)

It could also be an erotic game by default, so you could have Chance cards that tell the players to do some tasks like lapdances or sth. The order of these cards could always be the same. To change it, you could allow the player to cut the cards at the beginning of the game. The player who has to do the task will also change as some decision would lead to other players landing on the Chance field.

With game mode activated, it should even be possible to create a game board that shows the current position of the players on the board and even the number of hotels on each spot.

War

War has no random element at all. After the deck is shuffled and cut, you can already say who wins the game. (Only the order in which you put the cards back might make a difference but I think it's quite impossible to keep track of that on CHYOA with the current tools. I also think it will be quite boring.)

Liar's Dice

Depending on the number of dice, it might be quite complex.

Darts

Might be quite complicated as there are 62 potential zones one could aim for. And each zone might give you 10 or so fields you could hit. 301 to zero might work well for such a game as you could use some strategy.

Blackjack

Blackjack might be possible if the reader isn't the dealer.
You could define the cut (e.g. "a few cards from the top", "half of the deck", ...) and use a few decks.
The structure might be quite easy. (Changing the rules to remove the 11 or 1 option of the Ace might be good.)
If you don't bet and go for "lost game - strip" instead, the number of necessary decks and card chapters might be limited.
One deck should be worth 7 or more pieces of clothing. So if you create a set of two decks, it might be enough to get everyone naked. It might even possible for the reader to do card counting.

To add more randomness to Blackjack, you could add some unrelated decisions to occasionally skip a card or two.

 

[insertnamehere]

Pie pieces? Like you need to lose 3 tokens before you have to strip? In that case, it would also be possible to offer a different number of points for a piece of clothing. That way, you could also balance different sets of clothing. E.g. guy: briefs (4), pants (2), shirt (3); girl: panties (4), dress (5). It could also be used to give one of the players an advantage.

Playing pieces used in Trivial Pursuit are round and divided into six sections like wedges of pie. A small plastic wedge, sometimes called cheese (like cheese triangles), can be placed into each of these sections to mark each player's progress. (Wikipedia)

So instead of gaining a wedge for getting a question right on a headquarters space, you tell your opponent to remove an article of clothing. Instead of using the wedges to track your progress, you can just look at how many clothes your opponent has left.

 

[RomPerv]

You can also create randomness by typing in a bunch of random letters, pictures, etc. and linking them using the "#" symbol to different chapters at random intervals, but it won't work in "game mode". You then tell the reader to click on a random area of where you put the links.

 

[gene.sis]

Battleships might be possible but it would be a rather long game and it would be difficult to use different layouts for the opponent, so once you've played it, you know where the opponent's ships are.
The reader's setup should be predefined as well.
The opponent's predefined guesses would basically determine how many guesses the reader has. (Though it would also be possible to skip moves to make it faster or slower.)
A nice thing would be that each ship could stand for a special piece of clothing.
E.g. for a female player:
Patrol Boat (2 squares) -> panties
The submarine (3 squares) -> bra
Battleship (4 squares) -> skirt
Destroyer (5 squares) -> shirt
So if the Patrol Boat gets hit first, she has to peel her panties off while still wearing the skirt.


Billiards might make up a good strip game.
You could give a short description of how the balls are distributed (image?) and then offer the reader a few options on how and where they want to pocket.
It might also offer some nice opportunities... imagine a girl bending over the table with her tits out.

You can also create randomness by typing in a bunch of random letters, pictures, etc. and linking them using the "#" symbol to different chapters at random intervals, but it won't work in "game mode". You then tell the reader to click on a random area of where you put the links.

This is actually an interesting idea.

In game mode, you could create a grid of white, squared images surrounded by black images of the same size.
Then you have a few child chapters (chapter links) with results of 1 to 6 but all having an "empty" name.
Now, each of the white images would link to one of the child chapters. (Those child chapters would most likely be linking chapters.) With some parameters, you could change the distribution of the numbers (links) within the grid.
To roll the dice, the user should click anywhere in the grid. By doing so, they open one of the child chapters. (If the user remembers the "positive" chapter numbers and use the chapter options directly, they could "cheat", so you might want to add some other ways to punish cheating.)
(I haven't tested it but I think it should work. I'm not completely sure if there might be problems with an update but I feel it should still work.)

 

[Conan The Librarian]

What I would do for a game of poker with the current system would be to extend the "drawing cards" part of the story, since we don't have a way to directly generate a random hand of cards. I would start with a few chapters to introduce the characters, the game, the situation and ask the player questions that aren't directly related to the game itself: Were do you want to sit? Do you flirt with the blonde? Are you the one to draw your own cards? Are you drinking alcohol or water? The player is focusing on the story and getting invested, but these options are really there to choose what cards do you get, probably generating hidden conditions. There would be no direct correlation between giving 'good answers' and getting 'good cards'.

It could also affect the behaviour of the other players (ie. if you flirt with the blonde she plays more aggresively).

Yes, it is not random at all, which is actually imposible, but it would feel random to the reader since there isn't a direct correlation between their actions and the cards they get, and if the conditions are hidden they have no direct way to know the proccess. If you have them role the dice or select from a gigantic list of unlabeled options (which would be really off putting as a reader), the illusion is broken. With the limitations of our system, and keeping in mind that we are writting stories here, I think it would be far more effective to focus on creating that illusion rather than achieving actual randomness. Really old games like Castlevania, Mario or Zelda had similar systems, where 'random' drops are really chosen by things like your imputs as you move your character.

Also, in a poker game you don't play alone, but with other people, and that is ten times worse. You would either have to left the other players hands pre-set (which wouldn't simulate a game but your odds of beating a pre-set scenario), or have whatever system you design for the mc multiplied by the number of players, which, with the more than 3 million of posible hands in poker... good luck with that.

If you want to involve 'randomness' in other characters I would actually simplify the system so that no player has a precise set of actual cards, but a tier system of the general quality of their hands, something like:

Tier 0: Useless hand. You can't play anything with this.
Tier 4: Bad hand. Worth for little more than bluffing.
Tier 3: good hand. Can play something with this, but don't get too cocky.
Tier 2: Really good hand. Almost nothing can beat this.
Tier 1: Unbeatable hand. Literally the best play posible.

I would leave it so that only the playable character can get Tier 1, but if they tie with another player they always loose
So, in a game of 4 players, you have a set of five real posibilities and three sets of four posibilities: that would be seventeen routes to write, only taking into account the initial hands, which is already monstruous but still within the realm of the humanly posible.