Two genres seem to dominate

Whoah now, what's with this ragging on 2nd person? I think it's a great writing style for erotica even if the story ends up being fairly linear. Yes, it's a little 'clunky', but I think it's great because it emphasizes that the reader should be imagining all of this stuff as if it is happening to THEM, personally, right then and there, as opposed to the 1st person perspective which is more akin to listening to someone else telling a story from their own perspective after the fact.
 
fyreant said:
Whoah now, what's with this ragging on 2nd person? I think it's a great writing style for erotica even if the story ends up being fairly linear. Yes, it's a little 'clunky', but I think it's great because it emphasizes that the reader should be imagining all of this stuff as if it is happening to THEM, personally, right then and there, as opposed to the 1st person perspective which is more akin to listening to someone else telling a story from their own perspective after the fact.
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I think the discussion is less about "don't use 2nd person, it is bad" and more about - "if you use 2nd person, then branching points should be character's decisions and only character decisions." Something I heavily disagree with. I believe that there is no right or wrong approach for branching points, each has pros and cons.

Same goes for having consistency between parallel branches (aka all backstories\global events\characters are the same in all branches) or treating branches as versions of continuation of first chapters. I think both approaches can exist and both approaches have pros and cons.
 
Hvast said:
But having branching points that aren't protagonist's decisions give the advantage of additional flexibility and let the reader to experience more possible situations. It is a tradeoff.
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As shown with the examples, you don't have to give up the flexibility to experience more possible situations.

The tradeoff is rather that you have to put in more effort to reach a specific goal and that the reader might not be able to anticipate the outcome of their decisions. Though I even think that the latter is rather an advantage.
 
gene.sis said:
As shown with the examples, you don't have to give up the flexibility to experience more possible situations.
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You have to. If you are good in making branching points you can squeeze more options under the limitation of "all branching is done by protagonist's decisions" but you have to give up flexibility.

Unless you are just random and for slightly different character actions have different outcomes. And I mean different in a way that in one branch there is an earthquake and in another - a meteor shower.

Or something less drastic: Someone is knocking in your front door. You open it and see... Who is it? How do you actually rewrite this branching point as protagonist's decision?
 
Hvast said:
Or something less drastic: Someone is knocking in your front door. You open it and see... Who is it? How do you actually rewrite this branching point as protagonist's decision?
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If were me...

If I'm positing this question in that manner, it means that SOMEONE in the story is asking it. The answer is not necessarily the truth, but in the three perspectives it's still possible to give agency to the protagonist if you're willing to assume that the protagonist is not bound by the truth/Canon that has been established.

1st person: The main character can lie. If we hear the thoughts, there's possibly a reason for it. Conflicts between this and past established moments can be reasoned as lies or seeing things incorrectly. Memory is fallible, etc. Might even be that the main character doesn't recognize the identity established or disagrees. The main character's perspective can disagree with the facts established, therefore still retaining agency and choice.

2nd Person: If I'm telling in second person, it means that I've already granted a great deal of agency to the reader. As such, putting thoughts into the players head is depriving them of their own agency, and breaks immersion heavily if they are constantly making choices that relate to the "Reality" of the story, or reminders of a game. A question like "Who do you see?" Is very open ended, and encourages involvement in an audience that must wait on a delay in response at best, OR write it themselves. Both of which encourage creativity, but also require WORK, which is the opposite of the goal in having a story told in the first place. Short Version: Giving a question like "Who is it?" In second person immediately draws attention to the fact that "this is a GAME" and as such set certain expectations of control and directorial ability you don't find in other fiction. A BAD choice in this type of story can RUIN immersion and cause incredibly angry pushback. (For a RL example, see the Ending of Mass Effect 3)

Third Person: This pushes back the involvement, making the characters more independent from the reader. As such, a "Who is it?" question addresses someone not personally involved in the decision, and thus already has made the question less personal/meaningful. A question like this is less immersion breaking, because the player sees the protagonist as separate from themselves completely. As such, the question is the equivalent of another toy being brought in, and the selection more of a "A New Challenger Approaches" type of decision. There's fewer stakes on the decision, and if a poor choice is selected, it's an easy matter to go back at that choice and go with a different selection. The question is additive, expanding the scope of the story, and bringing in more, rather than demanding the player provide input.

Phew... So... there's a LONG answer to a very short question. I think it's possible to write from that question and still have agency, but it's better to think about how it's going to be seen by the reader first, and how that decision is going to affect their experience of the story. If somebody wants to know more about a certain point in the story, for example, the CHYOA format allows you to go back in, write a fleshing out/flashback or side path in response to a need, and then retain the story or change it based off of what you've done in the past. Need a REASON for the main character to betray their friends and not make it seem out of nowhere like hollywood? Write a quick flashback in the story where you can see WHY they turned against their childhood friend.

Of course all of this requires the dreaded W word. WORK. I think you can make anything work... as long as you're willing to work hard enough and take enough time with it. I could be wrong of course, but I did take a long time and had a lot of fun writing this. So far as I'm concerned... this was worth it even if you disagree with me because it served as a nice place to get my own thoughts down on this. Thanks!

 
Hvast, PLEASE don't take this personally, but:

1] "Should be only character's decisions." = Agree, but personally feel unable to write that way on this site [unless all agree, as I personally feel they should, that I/Contributor X are the writer(s) for the time being, so decisions I make they make].

2] "How do you actually rewrite this branching point as protagonist's decision?" = Quick answer: You don't. Except (as I expressed in 1) you're the author and therefore have that control... Meaning unlike any of us (I assume) when we read mainstream bestsellers, we know it's coming, so we first enter either character (or another entirely) making a plan/invitation/etc.
 
While I have no issues with incest, but routing to mind control which is such a popular genre...to me, mind control stories tend to be just...so god dam boring.

Let me ask, you guys a question here. Have you ever read this story before:
-A male protagonist who is around eighteen and in highschool
-They get some strange device/power to control minds and lust
-I don't have a third thing. I'm already way too bored.

Like...it's okay to change up formulas just once in a while. To me personally, I'm spoiled rotten with lewd already and none of that rudimentary stuff is in anyway interesting to me. We can all think of at least one highly popular chyoa story that we've tried to read and thought was just kind of bad, but praised anyway just for being along that vein. Yes, some people can do these things well. That doesn't mean everyone should go and do stories in the exact same way just because it's popular.
 
Auraicide said:
Like...it's okay to change up formulas just once in a while. To me personally, I'm spoiled rotten with lewd already and none of that rudimentary stuff is in anyway interesting to me. We can all think of at least one highly popular chyoa story that we've tried to read and thought was just kind of bad, but praised anyway just for being along that vein. Yes, some people can do these things well. That doesn't mean everyone should go and do stories in the exact same way just because it's popular.
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Absolutely agreed. People should write the story they want to read. For some that's the MC story with the dude in High School, but with different family. I'd humbly suggest that they do a quick search before writing that one, because it's... you know... been done. Add even a slight twist instead of formula, and you've got a classic. Add gaming stats for EVERYTHING! Boom... Number one. and Very Enjoyable. No judgement. It works and people ENJOY it. As long as you're having fun, you're doing it RIGHT, IMHO.

Some folks want the evil overlord fantasy. Have at it. But the story is worth exactly what you put into it. The less work in the story for both the protagonist and the writer, the less immersion and the less fun for the audience. Game stories deserve their popularity, because of the amount of hard WORK that goes into even the most basic choice. I can't do it, and I'm not going to claim that I know how to do it better. It's a skill I haven't mastered. I spent my time working on character motivations. That's what I enjoy. If I found somebody who liked the game making part as much as I liked the plot and story part... might have something someday. But Plot and Game are often at odds. The more of one, often, the less of the other. Both need structure, but working them together is a tough balancing act. Art sometimes requires breaking the rules, as ANY good gamemaster/writer will tell you.

The trick is not giving away that you're doing it when you HAVE to do it in order to maintain audience enjoyment. With a game, cheating in this manner deprives the player of the risk of a "Bad End" which for some is the entire purpose of the game. Others do not enjoy that risk, and so enjoy the cheating as long as it isn't BLATANT. They want to feel that they worked for the reward which they received. Doing so makes it more enjoyable in the long term, IMHO. Everybody remembers the awesome journey, and the satisfying end. Not the... Reward... followed by... reward! Followed by... REWARD! That's Just bad storytelling, but it sells, look at the bestseller list for young adults...
 
Frankly, People should just write what they want to write. Why would you take advice from me? Why would anyone take advice from anyone? In the end, outside of a few that actually have published works...We're just a bunch of idiots on the internet posting stories that we want to write.
 
Hvast said:
You have to. If you are good in making branching points you can squeeze more options under the limitation of "all branching is done by protagonist's decisions" but you have to give up flexibility.

Unless you are just random and for slightly different character actions have different outcomes. And I mean different in a way that in one branch there is an earthquake and in another - a meteor shower.

Or something less drastic: Someone is knocking in your front door. You open it and see... Who is it? How do you actually rewrite this branching point as protagonist's decision?
Click to expand...

Well, if you order the ways of offering decisions in a matrix, you get
Code: 
decisions made by       protagonist        omnipotent spectator

consistent events            11                     12

random events                21                     22

A story with the POV of an omnipotent spectator who has the ability to decide about random events would fit 22.

To compare apples with apples, you would have to compare it with 21 instead. In my opinion, telling a story with the combination 21 is rather odd, though there are still some chapters around doing it just like that.)

The other possibility would be to compare 11 with 12. But then the chapter question for an omnipotent spectator would only allow one answer as well.


Now, back to the example.
Yes, you indeed have to think about your branching points more carefully.
One way to have the possibility of different persons (or even no one) knocking at the protagonist's door at that moment could be achieved by shifting the decision to an earlier point in time.
There, the protagonist could have different possibilities. They could turn up the music, call someone, write a message, walk by the window naked, and so on. That way, the protagonist can get visited by the police, the neighbors, friends, parents, and so on.

So there are always ways to achieve a certain scenario/storyline.
Sure, it might not be possible just within a single line but possible nevertheless. (So if you define that as having to give up flexibility, you indeed have to.)

And as someone wrote in another thread recently - what I can only agree with - if the reader/protagonist has to work hard, the reward is so much better.
 
gene.sis said:
And as someone wrote in another thread recently - what I can only agree with - if the reader/protagonist has to work hard, the reward is so much better.
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I'm sorry; No disrespect to the numbers, but to me, the words are the important part of this one. What I think might be the true expression is that you are quoting what "someone wrote in another thread recently" that ONLY YOU CAN agree with (well, maybe not,... My point is that I certainly can't)... IMO, if the reader has to work harder [especially in offline fiction as I (& likely others of us) are reading while we write here], that's no guarantee the reward will be better or even as good.
 
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