dingsdongs
Really Really Experienced
TLDR: If this wall of text appears too long to read, i basically vote to abandon the "thumb down" voting option ;-)
Introduction:
I just received another down-vote to a chapter where i put a lot of work in. I pondered on what i could do about it, and came to the conclusion: Nothing. There is often no way to know why a down-vote was received, aside from speculation.
I told myself, to not be bothered by it of course, that there is nothing to be done about it. That the votes average out over time.
But is it true? That there is nothing i can about it? Of course not! Being an author at chyoa, i can write about it! ;-)
So here it is, an essay intended to open a discussion about the purpose of the down-votes, and the entire voting system overall.
Assuming that most voting users on chyoa will not read this forum post, the way i see it, there can be only two outcomes:
One: If other authors and the site administration agree, that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Two: That it is only my limited point of view, and that the majority of users might be quite happy with the way things are. In that case i would just have to accept the status quo and live with it ;-)
Now of course everything that follows is just personal opinion or speculation on my part, as i am relatively new, and have no insight into the sites setup or read the minds of the website owners ;-)
So i would like to start with discussing the general purpose of the voting system.
Why have a voting system?
I personally cannot think of anything else, and would conclude:
The voting system right now is used both as a simple way of giving feedback as well as a rating tool.
Now i would like to discuss the way this feedback is delivered and how the rating influences a readers decision to read a story.
Thumbs up:
Thumbs down:
While you do not see and get notification for down votes, it still results in feedback to the public and to the author.
What is the public feedback used for?
1. Calculating Ratings used for reasons explained above. (Search, "Top sex stories" ranked list)
2. Giving the reader a tool and information (among several others of course), to decide if it is worth his time to read a story.
But how does this rating actually influence a readers decision to read the story?
That is difficult to say and will differ from person to person. I also would like to differ between new readers, who do not know the story at all, and existing readers, who already follow the story:
New readers:
Existing readers:
So from my point of view, the rating is a useful tool for the reader in some circumstances, as well as useful for the ranked lists mentioned earlier, and it does have a certain impact on the chance to attract new readers.
But what about the feedback given to the author?
Again, i can only argue from my personal point of view. When i receive a thumbs up i feel happy, because i see that other people like the content that i spent much time on to create. Of course there are other indicators, like number of views, favorites, comments and private messages, and i'd rather have these. Because with the votes, there is no way to know what exactly was well liked, but the votes are a nice and simple way to convey the general message.
But what about the thumbs down? When i see one, i can think of the following reasons:
So lets discuss reason number one, "for whatever unknown reason".
Abuse of the rating system, to drag down the rating of a story
But i believe, that the downvoting can be a problem when a story deals with kinks that are not that widespread.
I.e. i assume that many more people like to read about straight relationships, rather than (without any judgment!) BDSM, incest, gay relationships, tentacles, furry, etc..
So by design, stories that appeal to a wider audience, already attract more up-votes, because more people would continue to read them and explore all the chapters. And they are less likely to attract down-votes, because of a person that feels especially negative about a specific kink.
So again, the system indeed does what it is designed to do: Stories that are more liked, and less disliked, receive a better rating, and thus have a better chance at visibility and attracting new readers, than stories that are being down-voted.
So when a story deals with a specific kink, it receives less views and likes already. So for the purpose of the rating for the search, the "top 10 stories", etc.,, - even without down-votes - a proper rating could be calculated. (i.e. take into account all the other existing factors, like views, likes, favorites, chapter depth and length, average likes per chapter, etc.)
But when it receives additional down-votes, or a flood of down-votes, it is much more difficult to recover the rating, due to the more limited audience.
It almost looks like a double punishment in the rating. No "like" and in addition a "dislike", especially when "abused" on several chapters in a row.
Conclusion and afterthought.
In theory, the voting system is fine as it is.
The feedback conveyed by the down-vote could not be less specific and useful, and the rating calculations could be adjusted to work without the down-votes.
And is it really necessary to down-vote stories you really do not like? Is it not possible to say: "Ok, i do not like this, but others might like it?" No reason to down-vote, just leave it alone and read something else.
The stories with content enjoyed by the majority will obviously still attract more up votes, and can thus receive a better overall rating.
I realize, that i as an author should write for my enjoyment, for fun, to explore the fantasies. And that the recognition in from of views, likes, etc. should be a nice bonus, but should not be the main purpose of writing in the first place. Still, it is a nice incentive, and as mentioned above, it is nice to know that others enjoy the content you are creating.
And in my opinion, if somebody does not like the story, he can just stop reading and look for something else. There is no need for additional down-voting.
So what do you think?
About the "thumbs down" button, and the voting system in general?
Is the down-vote useful? If so, how?
Do you use it? What does it take to qualify for your down-vote?
How do you feel about it as a reader, vs. as an author?
And is it OK to down vote several chapters in a row?
Could the voting system be improved?
For example i thought about replacing the thumbs down button with a grammar + spelling rating? As everything else (kink, behavior/development of characters, development of story arch, etc..) is highly subjective.
Introduction:
I just received another down-vote to a chapter where i put a lot of work in. I pondered on what i could do about it, and came to the conclusion: Nothing. There is often no way to know why a down-vote was received, aside from speculation.
I told myself, to not be bothered by it of course, that there is nothing to be done about it. That the votes average out over time.
But is it true? That there is nothing i can about it? Of course not! Being an author at chyoa, i can write about it! ;-)
So here it is, an essay intended to open a discussion about the purpose of the down-votes, and the entire voting system overall.
Assuming that most voting users on chyoa will not read this forum post, the way i see it, there can be only two outcomes:
One: If other authors and the site administration agree, that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Two: That it is only my limited point of view, and that the majority of users might be quite happy with the way things are. In that case i would just have to accept the status quo and live with it ;-)
Now of course everything that follows is just personal opinion or speculation on my part, as i am relatively new, and have no insight into the sites setup or read the minds of the website owners ;-)
So i would like to start with discussing the general purpose of the voting system.
Why have a voting system?
- To give the reader a very simple way to interact / to give feedback
- I like it? Great, thumbs up.
- I don't like it? Thumbs down.
While very simple, this creates some interactivity, and gives the reader the feeling that his opinion matters, as well as conveying this to the author. Overall, i would assume that for the reader it is a nice thing to have, and improves the overall experience, without having negative consequences for the reader. (And of course as the owner of a website, i want improve the user experience to attract visitors to it.)
- To use the readers vote as some kind of rating system, which in return i assume is used in several places at chyoa.
- For example when displaying search results, one can sort by "Relevance" and by "Rating".
- Choosing the "Top sex stories".
- Choosing the "Top chapters".
When i check the "Top sex stories", although i do not know exactly how they are calculated, i can make the following observations: Very different amounts of votes (600 on the low end, 2.700 at the high end). Very different amounts of views (from barely 150.000 to over 1,1 million). Favorites, bookmarks, chapters and chapter depth - everything varies greatly.
The one thing they seem to have in common is a 99% or 100% rating from votes.
And the "Top chapters" are clearly ordered by amount of up votes, with none of them having a single down vote.
The one thing they seem to have in common is a 99% or 100% rating from votes.
And the "Top chapters" are clearly ordered by amount of up votes, with none of them having a single down vote.
The voting system right now is used both as a simple way of giving feedback as well as a rating tool.
Now i would like to discuss the way this feedback is delivered and how the rating influences a readers decision to read a story.
Thumbs up:
- Part of the feedback is public.
- The reader can see the total amount of positive votes summarized for a whole story,
- either when he opens the search and looks for results,
- or when he already has opened the story.
- Additionally, the "thumbs up"for each single chapter can be seen on the "Recent Activity" tab,
- as well of course when the chapter is opened by the reader.
- The reader can see the total amount of positive votes summarized for a whole story,
As a reader, i might be more inclined to check out a story with better rating. (more regarding this later)
- There is also feedback to the author:
- He can receive a notification for thumbs up.
- As well as all the options the reader has to see it.
It conveys to the author that his chapter is well liked (for whatever reason), and hopefully gives him a feeling of appreciation and motivation to create more content like it.
While you do not see and get notification for down votes, it still results in feedback to the public and to the author.
- Part of the feedback is public.
- The thumbs down are not displayed on the "Recent Activity" tab, and only indirectly visible as part of the overall score (combined up and down votes).
- Either when he opens the search and looks for results,
- or when he already has opened the story.
- It can be seen when the specific chapter is open.
- The thumbs down are not displayed on the "Recent Activity" tab, and only indirectly visible as part of the overall score (combined up and down votes).
Again, as a reader, i might be more inclined to check out a story with better rating. (more regarding this later)
- There is also feedback to the author:
- He does not receive a notification for thumbs up.
- But he of course has the same options as any other reader to see it.
It conveys to the author, that his chapter is not liked (for whatever reason), and even seen as so negative, that someone actively pressed the down-vote button.
What is the public feedback used for?
1. Calculating Ratings used for reasons explained above. (Search, "Top sex stories" ranked list)
2. Giving the reader a tool and information (among several others of course), to decide if it is worth his time to read a story.
But how does this rating actually influence a readers decision to read the story?
That is difficult to say and will differ from person to person. I also would like to differ between new readers, who do not know the story at all, and existing readers, who already follow the story:
New readers:
- When i personally open a new story from the front page (when a new chapter is added), there are obviously many diverse factors i use to decide if i should spent time with it. I have to say, that more often than not the rating is not part of this. I look more for other things, like if i like the topic and introduction chapter, or i do look at the amount of chapters and chapter depth.
- When i search for stories by entering a search-word, i might be inclined to rather check out a result, if it has more chapters and a good vote rating. If it has a bad / no rating, in addition to little content, i will likely not open it.
- Of course, if using the search, and sorting by rating, i am more inclined to pick one of the top results, rather than browsing through several pages.
- When i follow a story, or see an update to a story i already know, i don't care about the rating at all.
But what about the feedback given to the author?
Again, i can only argue from my personal point of view. When i receive a thumbs up i feel happy, because i see that other people like the content that i spent much time on to create. Of course there are other indicators, like number of views, favorites, comments and private messages, and i'd rather have these. Because with the votes, there is no way to know what exactly was well liked, but the votes are a nice and simple way to convey the general message.
But what about the thumbs down? When i see one, i can think of the following reasons:
- The reader did not like the chapter for whatever unknown reason
- Abuse of the rating system, to drag down the rating of a story
- Hitting the button by accident. (It is so close to the thumbs up button after all
)
So lets discuss reason number one, "for whatever unknown reason".
There are quite many things the reader could possibly not like:
- Grammar and spelling
- The development of the story arch in general
- The way a character is described or acting
- This is a story with sexual and sexual fantasy themes after all, so one might not enjoy a particular kink.
- ...
The point is, there is no way to know what the problem is, without additional feedback. And apart from "Grammar and spelling", all the reasons i can think of are highly subjective. As an author, there is no way for me to interact with the person giving this negative "thumbs down" feedback.
I understand that the anonymity is by design, because otherwise a person might be very reluctant to use the down-vote in fear of "revenge down-voting" (i.e. "Abuse of the rating system"), or other personal repercussions.
Still, as feedback to the author i feel like this tool is very limited in conveying the message.
I understand that the anonymity is by design, because otherwise a person might be very reluctant to use the down-vote in fear of "revenge down-voting" (i.e. "Abuse of the rating system"), or other personal repercussions.
Still, as feedback to the author i feel like this tool is very limited in conveying the message.
Abuse of the rating system, to drag down the rating of a story
When i see, that several chapters in a row quickly receive a thumbs down, i can only assume that it is from one single person. And while i cannot know with certainty, why someone would choose to do that, i can only assume that he did not like the kink of the story, or they way it developed at all. And that he disliked it that much, that he felt the need to down vote it a lot.
The problem is, as an author i have no way of knowing, and can just say: "Ok, nevermind, i'll just ignore this".
Still it leaves behind a bad taste, because there is simply nothing i can do about it.
The problem is, as an author i have no way of knowing, and can just say: "Ok, nevermind, i'll just ignore this".
Still it leaves behind a bad taste, because there is simply nothing i can do about it.
- I can turn 0 views and 0 likes into 1000 views and 10 likes.
I can spent time and effort to work on my chapters and story, to promote it.
If my chapters are not well liked, or receive very view views, because they have bad grammar, are poorly written, etc. i can do something about it. Correct the existing mistakes, and in the future spent more time before hand. And work on my writing in general (practice makes perfect).
Then i can see how the views and votes develop, and if more people like the content i create.
So by spending time and effort, i can improve the chapters and story.
If my chapters are not well liked, or receive very view views, because they have bad grammar, are poorly written, etc. i can do something about it. Correct the existing mistakes, and in the future spent more time before hand. And work on my writing in general (practice makes perfect).
Then i can see how the views and votes develop, and if more people like the content i create.
So by spending time and effort, i can improve the chapters and story.
- I cannot turn 100 views and 1 dislike into 100 views and 0 dislikes.
- But with down-votes, there is absolutely nothing i can do, and this feels very frustrating. No matter how much i improve, the down votes are there to stay, and drag down the rating, and thus the chance at more visibility and attraction to new readers.
- And if there was nothing wrong with my chapter at all, and the reader just hated that specific kink, this is especially frustrating.
- For every down-vote, you need to create 99 up-votes, just to be back at a 99% rating.
- I cannot turn 100 views and 1 dislike into 100 views and 0 dislikes.
And in theory this should not be a problem, because up and down votes should cancel each other out (and in a well written story there always seem to be many more up- than down-votes here on chyoa).
My last point on the abuse: There is no easy way for me as an author to report this or have it investigated. As far as i can tell, there are no rules to the voting system at chyoa, and so it is in fact no problem to down vote 20 chapters in a row, because i do not like them.
I can only see this guide: https://chyoa.com/chapter/Feedback-&-Ratings.172718
The guide simply mentions the possibility of using thumbs-up/-down to give feedback to the author.
My last point on the abuse: There is no easy way for me as an author to report this or have it investigated. As far as i can tell, there are no rules to the voting system at chyoa, and so it is in fact no problem to down vote 20 chapters in a row, because i do not like them.
I can only see this guide: https://chyoa.com/chapter/Feedback-&-Ratings.172718
The guide simply mentions the possibility of using thumbs-up/-down to give feedback to the author.
But i believe, that the downvoting can be a problem when a story deals with kinks that are not that widespread.
I.e. i assume that many more people like to read about straight relationships, rather than (without any judgment!) BDSM, incest, gay relationships, tentacles, furry, etc..
So by design, stories that appeal to a wider audience, already attract more up-votes, because more people would continue to read them and explore all the chapters. And they are less likely to attract down-votes, because of a person that feels especially negative about a specific kink.
So again, the system indeed does what it is designed to do: Stories that are more liked, and less disliked, receive a better rating, and thus have a better chance at visibility and attracting new readers, than stories that are being down-voted.
So when a story deals with a specific kink, it receives less views and likes already. So for the purpose of the rating for the search, the "top 10 stories", etc.,, - even without down-votes - a proper rating could be calculated. (i.e. take into account all the other existing factors, like views, likes, favorites, chapter depth and length, average likes per chapter, etc.)
But when it receives additional down-votes, or a flood of down-votes, it is much more difficult to recover the rating, due to the more limited audience.
It almost looks like a double punishment in the rating. No "like" and in addition a "dislike", especially when "abused" on several chapters in a row.
Conclusion and afterthought.
In theory, the voting system is fine as it is.
- The feedback part of the voting system is extremely limited, but manages to convey a general tendency.
It reflects that people will likely click a button to give limited feedback, and the majority does not want to take the time to write something. So it serves its purpose.
- The rating part works as intended.
The feedback conveyed by the down-vote could not be less specific and useful, and the rating calculations could be adjusted to work without the down-votes.
And is it really necessary to down-vote stories you really do not like? Is it not possible to say: "Ok, i do not like this, but others might like it?" No reason to down-vote, just leave it alone and read something else.
The stories with content enjoyed by the majority will obviously still attract more up votes, and can thus receive a better overall rating.
I realize, that i as an author should write for my enjoyment, for fun, to explore the fantasies. And that the recognition in from of views, likes, etc. should be a nice bonus, but should not be the main purpose of writing in the first place. Still, it is a nice incentive, and as mentioned above, it is nice to know that others enjoy the content you are creating.
And in my opinion, if somebody does not like the story, he can just stop reading and look for something else. There is no need for additional down-voting.
So what do you think?
About the "thumbs down" button, and the voting system in general?
Is the down-vote useful? If so, how?
Do you use it? What does it take to qualify for your down-vote?
How do you feel about it as a reader, vs. as an author?
And is it OK to down vote several chapters in a row?
Could the voting system be improved?
For example i thought about replacing the thumbs down button with a grammar + spelling rating? As everything else (kink, behavior/development of characters, development of story arch, etc..) is highly subjective.
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