Costructive criticism: does really anyone want it?

[IWannaSpankGirls]

Try something like this.

Oh, that would work.

They could have, yes, and maybe the fact that they didn't is a mistake, or maybe it's a conscious choice that just needs to be worked out better to reach its full potential. Either way, the feedback "this made me feel confused about what was going on" is all the information the author needs. If they meant for you to be confused, they'll know they've made the right choice (though maybe the intent could be clarified? Does that make sense?). If they didn't, they'll know they need to do a major rewrite. A reviewer's opinion on what someone else's story should be like is, at best, irrelevant. The best thing they can do is let the author know how the story made them feel, and they'll be able to figure out what to do with it.

Admittedly, that does assume both parties are possessed of some basic level of competence. As an extreme example, pointing out that a story is full of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors and run-on sentences is obviously always valid and worth doing... except, of course, if you're reviewing Finnegans Wake. See what I mean? If even the most basic fundamentals of language are a mere suggestion, who's to say what's a mistake and what's literary genius?

Maybe, but I've seen a lot of writers, often the ones claiming to have written a masterpiece and but it on something like Archive of our Own or Fanfiction.net, make that claim. "Oh, you so totally were supposed to find that character I kept shilling for annoying." I usually find myself very skeptical about it.

That is famously not considered an effective way of conveying a character's emotions...

Not the best but better than nothing. It still passes for beginner level writing.

 

[Cuchuilain]

Yeah - I like poetry like that - the worse it is the better:

• • 
    A chicken is a noble beast,
  • 
    The cow is much forlorner;
  • 
    Standing in the pouring rain,
  • 
    With a leg at every corner.
    
    
    
    
    
    

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

Yeah - I like poetry like that - the worse it is the better:

• • 
    A chicken is a noble beast,
  • 
    The cow is much forlorner;
  • 
    Standing in the pouring rain,
  • 
    With a leg at every corner.
    
    
    
    
    

Beautiful!

 

[TheLowKing]

Maybe, but I've seen a lot of writers, often the ones claiming to have written a masterpiece and but it on something like Archive of our Own or Fanfiction.net, make that claim. "Oh, you so totally were supposed to find that character I kept shilling for annoying." I usually find myself very skeptical about it.

I think those are the people least likely to accept criticism anyway, because it demands a lot of openness and vulnerability, and a lot of people just aren't capable of it. I don't mean that as a put-down or anything, because taking criticism is hard. You've poured blood, sweat, and tears into your art, no matter if it's bad or good. It's your baby, and deep down you're always hoping that it'll be received as a masterpiece for the ages. Hearing that perhaps, maybe, possibly, it's not the paragon of perfection you've attempted to craft always hurts. It does me, at least, right there in the ego. Ow. It takes time to get over that gut reaction, and responding before you've soothed your wounded pride is probably a bad idea.



Actually, that's a great related question for y'all: say you've asked for constructive criticism, and you've gotten a bunch of replies with comments and recommendations, some good, some not so good. The best comments, of course, are from the couple of people who helpfully suggested you just toss out your modern erotic thriller, and rewrite it from scratch as a largely plotless isekai story set in a universe where <their fetish> is normal and <their favorite character from another story> does whatever they want.

How do you proceed? Do you respond, giving reasons and justifications for why you made the choices you did? Do you simply say thank you and work through it on your own? Do you run away and go live in the woods out of sheer embarrassment? What do you do with feedback you're ignoring, and what with feedback you're incorporating?

 

[Gambio]

I think those are the people least likely to accept criticism anyway, because it demands a lot of openness and vulnerability, and a lot of people just aren't capable of it. I don't mean that as a put-down or anything, because taking criticism is hard. You've poured blood, sweat, and tears into your art, no matter if it's bad or good. It's your baby, and deep down you're always hoping that it'll be received as a masterpiece for the ages. Hearing that perhaps, maybe, possibly, it's not the paragon of perfection you've attempted to craft always hurts. It does me, at least, right there in the ego. Ow. It takes time to get over that gut reaction, and responding before you've soothed your wounded pride is probably a bad idea.



Actually, that's a great related question for y'all: say you've asked for constructive criticism, and you've gotten a bunch of replies with comments and recommendations, some good, some not so good. The best comments, of course, are from the couple of people who helpfully suggested you just toss out your modern erotic thriller, and rewrite it from scratch as a largely plotless isekai story set in a universe where <their fetish> is normal and <their favorite character from another story> does whatever they want.

How do you proceed? Do you respond, giving reasons and justifications for why you made the choices you did? Do you simply say thank you and work through it on your own? Do you run away and go live in the woods out of sheer embarrassment? What do you do with feedback you're ignoring, and what with feedback you're incorporating?

So, this comes purely from doing Marcie and Gina segments.

From my experience doing what the readers wants almost always results in a weaker storyline.


That's because most readers don't care for narrative cohesion and just want sexy stuff.

That's fine if your goal is to write pure smut.

But I saw quite a few authors with a decent plot ask the readers what they want to happen next and the result is, to put it in Gina's words. "Absolute garbage!"

 

[gene.sis]

Starting off with something positive generally already softens the blow inherent with any kind of feedback (and is a good practice in general)

While I've heard that quite often, I'm actually not sure if that's the right way.
It feels like the first part might please the author and make them let their guard down completely before the second part hits them in a vulnerable state and hammers them into the ground.

 

[Miriam]

While I've heard that quite often, I'm actually not sure if that's the right way.
It feels like the first part might please the author and make them let their guard down completely before the second part hits them in a vulnerable state and hammers them into the ground.

Well, you can turn the order around. There's certainly something to be said for ending on a high note. The important part is to mention the positives too, or you'll hammer them into the ground either way.

 

[Unknown7]

Just don't tell them they're a bad person for writing it or that their passion is some immoral act that "hurts" others. That can seriously mess someone up real bad.

 

[gene.sis]

Well, you can turn the order around. There's certainly something to be said for ending on a high note. The important part is to mention the positives too, or you'll hammer them into the ground either way.

After googling about mixing criticism with compliments, I feel the feedback should either be criticism or a compliment.

 

[Miriam]

After googling about mixing criticism with compliments, I feel the feedback should either be criticism or a compliment.

Hm, from a personal standpoint I strongly disagree. But I suppose different people deal differently with feedback and criticism.

I'm still interested on what you based that decision, however. I've done courses in giving and receiving feedback (company-related) and 'mention the positives' was always brought forward as a best practice. My own online research seemed to confirm this.

I also fail to see how mentioning something positive before criticism is considered 'hammering them into the ground' but staying entirely negative isn't.

 

[gene.sis]

I also fail to see how mentioning something positive before criticism is considered 'hammering them into the ground' but staying entirely negative isn't.

If you criticize, you go from 0 to -10.
If you compliment, you go from 0 to 10, and with the following criticism, you go from 10 to -10.

So if you are high in the air, the crash might be harder.

I'm still interested on what you based that decision, however. I've done courses in giving and receiving feedback (company-related) and 'mention the positives' was always brought forward as a best practice. My own online research seemed to confirm this.

The search term basically is "sandwich criticism". Though it might not be exactly the same if you only have one layer of each.

 

[Miriam]

If you criticize, you go from 0 to -10.
If you compliment, you go from 0 to 10, and with the following criticism, you go from 10 to -10.

So if you are high in the air, the crash might be harder.

That explanation makes sense to me, and I see where you're coming from. Still, speaking entirely from my own experience (and low self-confidence) I have found that I'll respond much more positively to criticism if it isn't altogether negative. To me, mentioning something positive besides shows that someone has some appreciation for the time and effort I put in, and wishes to help improve it. At the very least, it gives me the impression that someone is acting from a position of empathy, rather than it feeling like some random stranger dropping in to deliver criticism just because they had a bad day. I'm obviously much more willing to indulge the former.

Again, different people react differently to criticism. There's obviously no single solution to perfectly delivering criticism to each and every person, but take my experience for what you will.

The search term basically is "sandwich criticism". Though it might not be exactly the same if you only have one layer of each.

The sandwich method of delivering feedback is indeed what I've been taught as the ideal way to deliver criticism if you want to be considerate of someone's feelings. But I suppose this is usually reserved for internal company feedback where you want to keep an amiable working relationship with your colleague afterwards. It might not apply equally to an anonymous online environment like CHYOA, and is also a bit high on effort if you apply it each time you want to make a quick remark.

Edit: If I google 'Sandwich criticism' I indeed see a lot of articles criticizing it in a variety of sarcastic ways, but their main argument seems to be that in a working environment people may not take the criticism part seriously enough (when coupled with compliments this way) in order to change their behavior when desired. Which could obviously be bad for overall job performance. Fair enough.

But I think for CHYOA especially it's safer to steer on the side of not trying to offend someone. People aren't getting paid to put in the effort, and aren't obliged to incorporate your feedback or adapt their story to your wishes anyway. Which is why coupling criticism with something positive still seems like a very suitable approach to me here; more so if your main concern is that you might offend someone by delivering it.

 

[Dissonant Soundtrack]

I didn't really address this point in my first post, but I should mention this since it's CHYOA: Any criticism is going to land much harder if it is delivered publicly. Regardless of how you sandwich or phrase a critique it may be best to do it in a DM. Comments should probably be positive only. CHYOA comments are all but permanent, so even if the writer addresses your criticism directly and satisfies everything you want - the complaint is still sitting there on their chapter until the end of days.

 

[Warden-Yarn15]

Anyhow, what do you consider to be constructive criticism?
It is all just about the tone of the comment?
Is anything that's not simply "I don't like it" constructive criticism?
Does it need to be technical?

By no means have I ever felt qualified to write anything intellectual, and this extends to literature, but I'll give in my two cents.

From what I've seen, there are a few types of people in this world:

1) Those who gladly accept criticism.
2) Those who are afraid of criticism and react negatively to it (whether mentally or aggressively).
3) Those who could not care less.

The First Group are, to be honest, quite difficult to find. The most reliable way to know that people are open to criticism, is when they tell you that they're open to criticism and appreciate yours. Telling an author of what you think about their story is a coin flip, not unless you just say how much you love it without putting a reason why, that usually invigorates people to keep on going.

The Second Group tends to be the kind of people I run into when I do post some constructive criticism. I think I have made some people delete their works simply by posting what I thought of their works.

I think I myself would collapse at a bad review of my works and forfeit continuation of the story if they have nothing much to say except point out the many problems my i̶n̶s̶e̶c̶u̶r̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶ brain somehow missed, as well as confirming the poor decisions I've made while writing, wondering if anyone's ever going to catchup.

Lastly, The Third Group simply doesn't give a fuck.

I've been told a lot in this forum that one should simply write for themselves and try to ignore what others think, as long as you (the author) think it's fine and dandy. They may say thanks, they may ignore you, but they'll keep on going, which is probably the kinds of people folks should look up to, and probably the most mentally healthy. Their quality varies, however, with some simply indulging in their own fetishes, not caring if anybody likes their work or not, and those who create grand stories but doesn't really communicate with their readers.

 

[gene.sis]

Still, speaking entirely from my own experience (and low self-confidence) I have found that I'll respond much more positively to criticism if it isn't altogether negative.

Well, I guess criticism should never be negative but rather constructive.
If I criticize someone's actions at work, I don't really care that they haven't done it in the best way. I rather want to improve the situation overall.

At the very least, it gives me the impression that someone is acting from a position of empathy, rather than it feeling like some random stranger dropping in to deliver criticism just because they had a bad day.

Well, delivery can make quite a difference.
The latter can't really be considered criticism but rather a rant of an authoritarian leader.
If you use a participative leadership style, the criticized person might already understand what your motives are and won't take it personally anyway.

Which is why coupling criticism with something positive still seems like a very suitable approach to me here

Here, it might actually be different as you're not a team at all.
So I still have conflicting opinions on this.
(Though I would still prefer to put criticism first.)

The Second Group tends to be the kind of people I run into when I do post some constructive criticism. I think I have made some people delete their works simply by posting what I thought of their works.

To address this, it might be advantageous to only offer small pieces of criticism to make the author improve instead of giving them a full-blown lesson that might overwhelm them.

 

[TheLowKing]

To address this, it might be advantageous to only offer small pieces of criticism to make the author improve instead of giving them a full-blown lesson that might overwhelm them.

Agreed, and I'm kind of shocked we haven't brought this up before!

Even the most insightful feedback isn't going to convert a first time writer into Tolstoy overnight. Pick out a couple of things to improve, and ignore everything else. I tend to write out feedback for half a dozen different things, just to get it out of my system, and then only submit one larger and one smaller thing, deleting everything else. Remember: giving feedback is for them. The process isn't about you.

 

[Iam_DickMan]

So, this comes purely from doing Marcie and Gina segments.

From my experience doing what the readers wants almost always results in a weaker storyline.


That's because most readers don't care for narrative cohesion and just want sexy stuff.

That's fine if your goal is to write pure smut.

But I saw quite a few authors with a decent plot ask the readers what they want to happen next and the result is, to put it in Gina's words. "Absolute garbage!"

Hey! I resemble that remark!

 

[Gambio]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Hah, don't worry you aren't the first author where I made that observation.

I think the only way it can work is with a very rigid structure. Marcie and Gina did have a few stories featured who succeeded in that like Tower of Voices, or the Submission Accelerator

Incidentally, engin actually did a review on Advanced Fantasy a while back, thought I mentioned it in case you missed it

 

[Iam_DickMan]

Hah, don't worry you aren't the first author where I made that observation.

I think the only way it can work is with a very rigid structure. Marcie and Gina did have a few stories featured who succeeded in that like Tower of Voices, or the Submission Accelerator

Incidentally, engin actually did a review on Advanced Fantasy a while back, thought I mentioned it in case you missed it

I hadn’t seen it so thanks for the heads up.

 

[TheSphinx20991979]

If you have trouble recieving criticism, just remember that anyone posting actual constructive criticism cares enough about your work to do so. If your work bored someone to tears, they wouldn't mention specific issues with a work, or better said even if they did there had to be some spark, SOMETHING that spoke to them and made them want to leave a comment or critique, and that is a good sign. I do feel a little bad with a very long critique that I felt was constructive I left here, being new, and missing that there was a forum I felt the comments were the only place I could leave it, and also not knowing the DMing culture here, getting a DM right out of the blue that was criticizing the work felt like it would be kind of ringing one someone's doorbell to leave a flaming bag of dogshit.

I haven't posted anything here yet, but working on erotic fiction for a living in other formats, I did find that respecting critiques is important from my end. If I do see someone coming to me with issues even if I don't agree I do thank them for the comments and criticism, even if it isn't actionable. I think authors often times have trouble putting themselves in the minds of a reader, and understanding how a character's actions may or may not be seen. Or not understanding that while YOU know your world very well, a reader does not. Critique gives you an outside perspective, sometimes good, or sometimes bad. But it is often imoprtant.