praise in public/ criticize in private

Better than criticizing in public, but my personal stance is just not to go claws out on somebody regardless of public or private. That's in the case that one's criticism would be a matter of preference, but even in the case that one is making a necessary critique, if it can't be stated perfectly tactfully and in just the right way, it'll only make the writer more resistant to the suggestion.

More and more lately, I've been thinking that it's perfectly valid for an artist or writer to limit requests for critique to only people they trust. It's just overwhelming to receive a list of things to fix unsolicited from strangers. A comment to fix spelling or grammar comes through pretty harmless if it's said the right way, but anything involving character motivations, narrative, etc. is probably best kept out of altogether unless you are either friendly with the person or at least a familiar face to them.

As for whether one should critique in private, up to you, but I think what's said in private often becomes public. Personally, I try to talk to people with that in mind.
 
There is an issue with users who seem to cricitise stories, not to see them improve, but to achieve some thrill or rush of pleasure from preaching their own values and calling out others that don't share them. "You forgot to state X character's exact breast size, but I would never do that. In fact, once I went on a date with a woman who had a much smaller chest than her Tinder profile suggested. Ever since then, whenever I read a story without knowing a character's breast size, I keel over and die. You don't want to be responsible for a death, do you??" (I'm thinking of two users in particular, but there are others.)

Direct, unsolicited, public criticism should be offered only insofar as the author can actually, reasonably act upon it and it is nearly guaranteed to improve their story. Pointing out grammatical errors, asking for story clarifications, and suggesting better structures are appropriate here. Private dialogue eases the boundaries a little, but it takes some care to avoid actively insulting the writer or their story. You could suggest narrative adjustments here. Only when the user is actively requesting commentary should you start pointing out more fundamental problems, such as a premise that's boring, stupid or overdone. They want to know what you think, so you should tell them, provided you are polite about it. It's also fine, I think, to make such comments in general, such as on the forum (i.e. indirectly), if you only want to complain about the genericness of a certain story type, for example. Calling out a particular story by name would be a little rude, but it depends on how you go about it.

The worst case is commenting on a story, unwarranted, with criticism that runs to the very core of what comprises the story, such as its genre or premise. In this scenario, you're not suggesting improvements as much as you are effectively demanding that the author delete the story.
 
I think that there is a time and a place for criticism and every author should be able to choose how much they want to take in. I think it should be understood that not every author is extremely experienced with writing and that not every author may be comfortable with receiving feedback on something they personally contributed a lot of work to. Nobody really wants to spend hours on a project, only for someone to come in and basically tell them it’s trash in maybe politer words. I think you just really have to read the room and the vibe of the story. Does it seem more casual? Then perhaps they’re not really interested in doing anything more than sharing a story? There’s a lot of writers who just want to write, and I think that’s fair. Is it helpful to point out spelling and grammatical errors? Well, it depends. While most writers do try to have the correct words, not all are bothered to get every grammatical point correct. I sometimes knowingly splice sentences to try and get a pacing of dialogue across to the reader, and it’s not helpful to just say that it’s incomplete because I already know that, but I did it on purpose. A lot of what can be criticized is also very very subjective and personal as you all have said. Do I think this story is a bit fast pacer? Maybe. But maybe that was also intentional, so am I to judge a story because it just happens to be too fast? Maybe I think it’s too graphic or not enough, but again maybe that’s intentional for various reasons? Especially when we are dealing with so many fantasies and preferences. Some people like to intentional not include as much detail whether it be for comfortability or to keep it open for other authors or other readers to interpret.

I might describe someone as small or even large chested and while that technically could mean anything, sometimes that leaves the door open for the reader to determine what that means. What is small to them? What is large to them? I also think if you’re going to comment critically, it is important to think about phrasing and how you come off. Are you giving a list of demands? Or are you trying to be a teacher? Both can be a bit off putting. Are you trying to come from the approach as a fellow author? Sometimes that can be seen as backseat writing. I think a good balance and a sense of awareness is therefore important. If you’re unsure about how an author may feel about receiving feedback, I’d say ask them. Hey, are you looking for some suggestions or to improve your work? Don’t be offended if the answer is no or not really. I will say, commenting about the overall story is almost ALWAYS appreciated even if it is critical or opinionated. But commenting to give specific criticism, is not always wanted. Some people feel really uncomfortable with unsolicited advice. For me, it depends. Most of the time I prefer if people talk about the story itself, but I have learned that no one can be satisfied in terms of detail or structure. I’ve been told something is too graphic. I’ve been told THE SAME THING is too basic and vague. I’ve been told something is too fast and AT THE SAME TIME been told something is too slow. Pacing and detail never wins everyone, so it’s best to just do whatever you’re comfortable with. Also it’s important to remember a lot of authors use their stories as a means of escape, whatever that means for them. And some stories are actually personal to an author even if it’s fiction. Authors sometimes take from their own lives or experiences so commenting about it might be a bit sensitive. I still have a lot to learn, but from what I have experienced people always appreciated public appraisal, but not everyone appreciates the opposite. So if you think you’re going to be critical, maybe ask in a PM about it.
 
I'll go against the flow here.

There's nothing wrong with public criticism, period. That is of course if it is not particularly disruptive or mean.
This reminds me a little about the thumbs up/thumbs down thing: people abused so much of the feature that thumbs down were altogether removed.

What's the free comment section there for? Let's just get rid of it.
Let's add the feature to enable or not comments for a story, why not after all?

You can't seriously expect people to leave only positve feedback, that's just not how it works when you expose yourself (your work) to public.
 
Gambio said:
Oh, you would be surprised.
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We’re all masochists aren’t we?

I know I was purposefully exaggerating, and my comment is also not meant to order people how to comment, moreso to advise on the perspective others have. At the end of the day, you can ignore it or take it. Also never feel so entitled that you think an author HAS to follow your advice. Which is why I make the teacher comparison. If your objective is to critique and give suggestions and such I don’t think that should be problematic, but if it comes off as more you telling an author what to do or making it seem more like a graded assignment (you know those teachers that think it’s their way or the highway), then don’t necessarily expect to be responded with open arms. I don’t know if I’m saying this quite the way I want to honestly. I guess the best way to sum it up. If you’re going to advise, understand it will probably be taken as such, advisement.
 
MidbossMan said:
As for whether one should critique in private, up to you, but I think what's said in private often becomes public. Personally, I try to talk to people with that in mind.
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I have learned through experience very quickly that a private conversation will have a 90% chance of not staying private. Even if they don’t leak DMs directly, they say it through their pettiness and passive aggressiveness. Whether it’s on Twitter being like “I had an encounter with this person who said blah blah blah” or an exaggerated compliment like “thank God you’re not like the last person I talked to/I had the worst experience in this community/forum/whatever I was in”
 
When in doubt about providing critiques to an author, I say just ask the author themselves. Something as simple as "do you mind if I give you some feedback?" will go a long way, and it'll likely become pretty clear if they're okay with something public, if they would prefer private messages, or if they aren't interested.

I typically side with the idea that it should be up to the creator of a work to decide if they're accepting critique. In that sense, I wouldn't mind being able to either disable or moderate comments on my own stories, or for other authors to be able to do the same, particularly when I am not acknowledging critique (which I typically am not on CHYOA, this place is a writing exercise for me and not one where I take the content I write very seriously).

But from the critic's standpoint, if you absolutely must say something unsolicited to a stranger about content they spent free time on that you can consume likely without paying for access to it: just be considerate in what you write, regardless of where it's written.

The thing that really sticks in my mind is that critiquing is itself something that can (and should) be criticized at times, as it's a skill that some wield skillfully while others do not. Good critiques help guide someone to elevate their work, and typically should give the impression that you like this work, but you think it could be even more enjoyable with improvements. Those who want to be critical just to bring an author down: you can just move on and never read that story again, that is a choice always available to you. Even though I know a some people seem to like to write/read something scathing for either hurtful or comedic effect in the comments sometimes, that can be so deflating to read about your own work when it's not invited.

To critique the methods of various critics, something to consider is that you can often use praise instead of being critical to get the same intended effect, and avoid the issue altogether. If you want more attention to various paths in a story but the author seems to have moved on to different ideas that you don't enjoy or they don't work as well, saying "I don't think this story branch is good" could be replaced with a comment in a different part of the story saying "I really like this branch and would enjoy seeing more of it". Instead of pointing out flaws in pacing or structure in one part of the story, it's possible to find a part of the story you do think was written well, and that can give the writer a good roadmap for what people are looking for. Not all of it has to be reworked into a positive angle, and some criticism won't work in that format anyway, but knowing how to utilize tricks like that is part of the skill of critiquing.
 
Halode said:
When in doubt about providing critiques to an author, I say just ask the author themselves. Something as simple as "do you mind if I give you some feedback?" will go a long way, and it'll likely become pretty clear if they're okay with something public, if they would prefer private messages, or if they aren't interested.

I typically side with the idea that it should be up to the creator of a work to decide if they're accepting critique. In that sense, I wouldn't mind being able to either disable or moderate comments on my own stories, or for other authors to be able to do the same, particularly when I am not acknowledging critique (which I typically am not on CHYOA, this place is a writing exercise for me and not one where I take the content I write very seriously).

But from the critic's standpoint, if you absolutely must say something unsolicited to a stranger about content they spent free time on that you can consume likely without paying for access to it: just be considerate in what you write, regardless of where it's written.

The thing that really sticks in my mind is that critiquing is itself something that can (and should) be criticized at times, as it's a skill that some wield skillfully while others do not. Good critiques help guide someone to elevate their work, and typically should give the impression that you like this work, but you think it could be even more enjoyable with improvements. Those who want to be critical just to bring an author down: you can just move on and never read that story again, that is a choice always available to you. Even though I know a some people seem to like to write/read something scathing for either hurtful or comedic effect in the comments sometimes, that can be so deflating to read about your own work when it's not invited.

To critique the methods of various critics, something to consider is that you can often use praise instead of being critical to get the same intended effect, and avoid the issue altogether. If you want more attention to various paths in a story but the author seems to have moved on to different ideas that you don't enjoy or they don't work as well, saying "I don't think this story branch is good" could be replaced with a comment in a different part of the story saying "I really like this branch and would enjoy seeing more of it". Instead of pointing out flaws in pacing or structure in one part of the story, it's possible to find a part of the story you do think was written well, and that can give the writer a good roadmap for what people are looking for. Not all of it has to be reworked into a positive angle, and some criticism won't work in that format anyway, but knowing how to utilize tricks like that is part of the skill of critiquing.
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I agree with a lot of these points. And no, being positive does NOT mean you just have to say “Good job” everytime. There is a difference between “WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU WROTE THIS CHAPTER IT MAKES NO SENSE???!!!!!!” To “I really enjoyed the concept of this and it has potential, but the pacing could be improved and I didn’t understand what you were saying when you said the protagonist was blah blah blah.” Obviously I’m over exaggerating, but at the same time I’m not far off with some of the critiques I have seen in my days, and I’m not even talking about this site.
 
I think a good comparison is a street performer. Would you go up to a complete stranger who is playing a guitar with his case open, and say “that song could use some work on the pacing and rhythm.” (Or something in ruder words) Most likely, no (unless you’re that type of Karen) you wouldn’t, you would just keep walking and plug your ears or put earbuds in. Although it might be helpful to tell a guitarist that they’re playing out of tune.
 
SeriousBrainDamage said:
I'll go against the flow here.

There's nothing wrong with public criticism, period. That is of course if it is not particularly disruptive or mean.
This reminds me a little about the thumbs up/thumbs down thing: people abused so much of the feature that thumbs down were altogether removed.

What's the free comment section there for? Let's just get rid of it.
Let's add the feature to enable or not comments for a story, why not after all?

You can't seriously expect people to leave only positve feedback, that's just not how it works when you expose yourself (your work) to public.
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I get you, I do think from a writer's perspective you really do have to be ready for whatever kind of critique, constructive or otherwise, that might come through. I certainly wouldn't advocate for restricting anyone's ability to comment. All I'm saying is really my personal philosophy for when/how I comment to offer critique.

If there is a balance to be had, I'd certainly be in favor of more comments that aren't quite what I wanted than no comments at all!

We can't really expect to control what kind of comments we get, but we can always think about what comments we ourselves make. ;)
 
SeriousBrainDamage said:
There's nothing wrong with public criticism, period. That is of course if it is not particularly disruptive or mean.
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I disagree. I can certainly envision criticism that is neither disruptive nor mean nor useful, intelligent or valuable. Posting a polite rant on how much you hate videogames under the comments of some unprovocative Tomb Raider fanfiction is decidedly 'wrong', if not severely so.
SeriousBrainDamage said:
What's the free comment section there for? Let's just get rid of it.
Let's add the feature to enable or not comments for a story, why not after all?
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That's not a terrible idea, actually. Readers are not necessarily entitled to have their thoughts displayed alongside authors' content; you can't force Scholastic to include your grievances against Harry Potter in the back of its next printing. I don't think an audience's opinions against a work should actually be restricted entirely, but that is why the forum exists, especially the Story Feedback section.
SeriousBrainDamage said:
You can't seriously expect people to leave only positve feedback, that's just not how it works when you expose yourself (your work) to public.
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You are entirely correct. There is often an enormous difference between what ought to be and what is. Behaving as if people act exactly as they should is a recipe for disaster. If you leave your car unlocked in a rough neighbourhood, you can't expect nobody to steal from it simply because stealing is wrong.

At the same time, however, stealing is nonetheless wrong. If you steal from an unlocked, abandoned car, you are still doing the wrong thing and deserve legal consequences. You could argue that anyone who leaves their possessions so vulnerable is asking for it, or that they clearly don't care the safety of such possessions... but then you run into the same problem: assuming how others think and act based on how they ought to.

Perhaps anyone who publishes stories on CHYOA ought to be thick-skinned and open to all forms of criticism, but the simple and unavoidable fact of the matter is that most aren't. As such, from the perspective of one seeking to criticise, you should not assume that everyone is going to like your criticism, that they will act on it, and that your criticism will actually improve their story. After all, in the base situation of unsolicited, unfiltered criticism based on your personal preferences, each of those things are quite unlikely in isolation, let alone together.
 
wicker said:
good idea when it comes to commenting on stories or chapters?
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It depends. When I see that someone doesn't even try I will make my opinion known publicly exactly to hurt their feeling and use a rather harsh motivation of public humiliation* to do better or stop.

If I like the stuff or see that person does try to be good, I'll use private means to point to errors.


*Yes, any criticism, justified or not, polite or not, is a form of public humiliation. Different people have different levels of tolerance to this but if you think that your valid criticism is not humiliating, you are plain wrong.
 
MidbossMan said:
I get you, I do think from a writer's perspective you really do have to be ready for whatever kind of critique, constructive or otherwise, that might come through. I certainly wouldn't advocate for restricting anyone's ability to comment. All I'm saying is really my personal philosophy for when/how I comment to offer critique.

If there is a balance to be had, I'd certainly be in favor of more comments that aren't quite what I wanted than no comments at all!

We can't really expect to control what kind of comments we get, but we can always think about what comments we ourselves make. ;)
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I would 100% rather more people comment. Outside of the blatant just asshole hatred of course. But I always feel a bit weird when people don’t comment especially as someone who has written on Wattpad (under a different name) at least the parrots of “UPDATE!” Show some sign of life, even if they are annoying everytime I read it.
 
I think getting rid of the comments entirely would be a BIG mistake. I don’t really think authors wants ZERO comments except for maybe a few, but we are asking for reasonable comments I think. Maybe the ability to moderate/have rules for each story. I mean we have Writer Guidelines, why not commenter guidelines? Not like a dictation on someone’s speech but just a polite way to give commenters what we’re comfortable with receiving. Perhaps there are people that want everything they’ve written to be torn apart and given the editor comments. Perhaps others want people to comment on the general story and not just make a list of everything wrong with the story like it’s a CinemaSins video. At the very least let us convey that much to the commenters without impeding on the actual story. Right? Would that be fair? To just have rules for the comments? And the permission to delete unwanted comments without having to go to the moderators about it? I mean we’re all adults here, we should be able to reasonably moderate the comments section of our OWN stories and honestly it usually isn’t that many people who do those types of comments anyways, at least from what I’ve seen anyways. Then again, I hardly go outside the stories I contribute to.
 
Maybe the power of deletion would be a bit much. I don’t think most comments really need deleting. But I think just a heads up of what we want would be beneficial for everyone.
 
I’d also like to point out that people PROVIDING feedback often don’t like to RECEIVE feedback about their feedback that they gave.... not everyone is like that, but let’s be real here when people give criticism, they often expect the author to say Yes sir or Yes Ma’am and change it to fit what they want, but when they get anything else they go “REEE i was just giving my opinion!” (Maybe not exactly like that, but they do often have that sort of reaction). If an author says “I appreciate your feedback, but I’m not interested.” People then go and say “this author cannot take criticism! They didn’t change anything I told them to!” Like bruh come on now, just because you give criticism, and someone doesn’t act on it, doesn’t mean that they can’t take criticism, it just means they didn’t find your feedback beneficial for whatever reason that may be. And people often go “it astounds me that you didn’t do anything that I said to improve your work.” It is actually ironic that more often than not, people who give feedback (and I’m not necessarily just referring to this site either) don’t like getting feedback in return.
 
Humilatron said:
but let’s be real here when people give criticism, they often expect the author to say Yes sir or Yes Ma’am and change it to fit what they want, but when they get anything else they go “REEE i was just giving my opinion!”
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Yep. The good old misunderstanding of how free speech works. You are free to express your opinion but be ready that others will express their opinion on your opinion. It is amazing how many people don't get it.
 
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