Do you write for a queer or trans audience?

[DeviantChalice]

You seem to have got the impression I meant experience can only be earned through the act itself. It's more that cultural norms about sex are predominantly cisgender and heterosexual so if you try to come at it from a "neutral" mindset you might risk instead applying the default. That is to say: cis het

 

[Testytesterton]

You seem to have got the impression I meant experience can only be earned through the act itself. It's more that cultural norms about sex are predominantly cisgender and heterosexual so if you try to come at it from a "neutral" mindset you might risk instead applying the default. That is to say: cis het

This is so well said. This is what I mean about writing for a queer audience btw. I don't mean queer characters or gay sex, which is cool if you want to include. I think it's better if you do it respectfully, and you can always ask for feedback if you aren't sure about representation.

But what I am looking for is people writing with a queer audience in mind. I get that this may be hard for cis het people. As you say, the things that just don't occur to them to fantasize about is 90% of my sexuality and romance. It's fine if they can't. I am just looking for those that can.

 

[haileytraynor]

Wouldn’t it be fair to say though that erotic het content is also not necessarily written for a het audience or filmed for that matter. I would in fact claim that porn especially professional porn is not really having any audience in particular in mind (in a manner as you define) other than to play on fetishes, desires, and what they believe people will find attractive. That has always been the push in the industry.

No one has sex like they do in porn. Most porn have lack of emotion, lack of actual romance and is just purely sex driven most of which leaves out the actual true essence of a relationship. If you approach relationships from a porn perspective most of the time you’ll end up dissatisfied because there’s so much more to it. I feel like relationships are a lot about character. Who a person is.

If someone is more aggressive and dominating, they’re probably going to reflect that way in bed likewise if someone is shy and timid they may either reflect that but of course there’s always the hidden opposite where the shy person is actually surprisingly assertive in bed or the tough macho person is actually more submissive in bed.

There are plenty of things that don’t occur to anyone when writing or producing porn or erotic content.

 

[haileytraynor]

You seem to have got the impression I meant experience can only be earned through the act itself. It's more that cultural norms about sex are predominantly cisgender and heterosexual so if you try to come at it from a "neutral" mindset you might risk instead applying the default. That is to say: cis het

But if I’m bisexual as I am. Then by that I have the experience, however that experience may not align with what I have viewed or read.

If that is the case then what experience do I have?

Am I clear to write what I have not yet actually experienced because I’m bi or am I hindered by the fact I have no clear vision other than what is available on the internet and therefore cannot approach things from an authoritative position?

And what if I’m closeted?

Which I partially am. My experience of that would be very different from someone who is out in the open.

And if culture norms are predominantly “cis het” then how can I as a virgin bi know anything of the nature of a queer perspective?

These are more so rhetorical questions btw, I’m just trying to paint a bigger perspective overall.

I think that if a virgin bi cis female who has no personal experience can learn through the means of the internet, can a cis het not do the same?

Or is there still a barrier because they are straight and identify the way they were born?

 

[haileytraynor]

But if I’m bisexual as I am. Then by that I have the experience, however that experience may not align with what I have viewed or read. If that is the case then what experience do I have? Am I clear to write what I have not yet actually experienced because I’m bi or am I hindered by the fact I have no clear vision other than what is available on the internet and therefore cannot approach things from an authoritative position? And what if I’m closeted? Which I partially am. My experience of that would be very different from someone who is out in the open. And if culture norms are predominantly “cis het” then how can I as a virgin bi know anything of the nature of a queer perspective? These are more so rhetorical questions btw, I’m just trying to paint a bigger perspective overall. I think that if a virgin bi cis female who has no personal experience can learn through the means of the internet, can a cis het not do the same? Or is there still a barrier because they are straight and identify the way they were born?

And one might say well if you do your research you’re good to go, but which research is to be followed?

If someone claims to be gay on the internet and shares their insight, am I to take them as they say and believe them and go off of that?

Or should I take more of a bigger survey pool?

And how big is big?

The point is that this world is so big that while I might have many people tell me one perspective, that doesn’t include the other 7 billion people on the planet which then puts up a dilemma.

If I am questioning and taking anecdotes from 20 queer people, and write based on what they say, am I really writing for a queer audience or am I just writing for those 20 people who have a common identity?

If I write for myself as a bi person, am I writing for a queer audience or am I alone not enough to make that claim?

It’s this that makes things more complicated.

Maybe I enjoy the fetishization? Maybe I like strap ons? But if I write about it just because I like it, then you’re going to have people that have a problem because while I am bi there are others that have a problem with that approach and theme.

It’s the same for any kink or category there is. There are areas that fall under ENF or ABDL that people will have a problem with even if they like the other half of it.

 

[DeviantChalice]

I feel like you're engaged in a different conversation to the one I'm in.

 

[haileytraynor]

I feel like you're engaged in a different conversation to the one I'm in.

I am literally taking the points you brought up and expanding on them. This is a conversation not a monologue, I’m using the points you brought up to expand on my points.

But I mean if you don’t want to engage, I guess we’re done, but I was hoping to have a more expansive conversation than just answering a yes or no question. I’m still interested if people want to think about my points too.

I mean if the whole idea is that this world is cis het based, then is there really any way to learn outside of actually doing it?

What experience could you learn that is not something a cis het couldn’t also experience? I mean are there like hidden cults I’m not aware of?

And I’m not even talking about just the physical stuff but also the emotional.

If I have never had a partner, then where can I get experience that isn’t through a book, the internet, a movie, a show, or somewhere that isn’t accessible to also cis het people?

My point is could a cis het person also experience what a queer person does if they’re all using the same sources and same places to learn such things?

Is there a mentality bridge that prevents a cis het person from experiencing what a queer person would?

It’s an interesting thing to think about. Isn’t it?

We’re all wired differently. I mean there’s a reason trans people exist, there’s a reason gay and lesbian people exist.

Is there a psychological boundary that truly prevents someone of the opposite spectrum from truly realizing the ideas of the other?

Or is it simply a wall built by society that just needs some tearing down?

 

[haileytraynor]

Understand I’m coming at this from a philosophy and psychological standpoint, not an argument or debate. I’m just thinking out loud if you will.

I’m someone who is always fascinated by the way people think and process information. I’d never want to be an actual psychologist but it is interesting to think about.

There’s so much that this topic point can unravel. The topic of experience, the audience, and what unfolds because of it.

Who has the authoritative perspective when it comes to stuff like sex, erotic content whether it’s queer or het or whatever?

Is it the people who actually do it? But then where do they get their knowledge from? Porn videos? Documentaries? Trial and error? Word of mouth?

I mean the whole idea of this topic is who has the authoritative right to write about queer content or for a queer audience. So who has the authoritative knowledge of the whole genre?

What experience is enough to pull from?

Is simply identifying as such enough?

Or are there certain points you have to get to before you truly know?

I mean as a kid we think we know everything and then we become adults and learn how stupid we were. Would it be the same for queers and identity as a whole?

And by that are newfound queers able to have the same connection that veteran queers do?

The answer to that is obvious but at the same time because of that, how much experience do you need to have to truly understand what it’s like to be bi or gay or pan or trans or other?

Again I’m just putting thoughts out there. Idea points to maybe have someone expand their own thoughts on.

 

[haileytraynor]

From my experience, I think I’ve always known I’ve been “odd” but I didn’t have the word or understanding for it. I thought that the only options were gay or straight. So when I found an attraction to guys, I assumed I was straight.

But I also found girls attractive, but I couldn’t be gay because I liked guys. At some point I realized that there were more options but I didn’t truly realize that I definitely was not straight until I really really thought about, all the times I got flustered in the locker rooms from seeing other girls change.

All the times I fell in love with a female character for just beauty sake both physically and characterwise. Whether it was Ariel, Belle, Daphne Blake, Barbie, Shakira, Wonder Woman, Liara T’soni, or someone else, I think I have always subconsciously known I liked women, but I just didn’t fully realize it until 2016. Suddenly some things just clicked in my brain and I was like.... bruh I’m not straight.

It’s funny how small it can be.

A simple comment or the realization that other women don’t have these feelings towards female characters from the way I do.

That alone is definitely an experience that I know a truly heterosexual person could never understand. And I know this because I’ve asked.

So yeah there’s definitely areas that have boundaries, but is it because they can’t feel or understand it?

Or is it because there were walls already built by society?

How deeply psychological is it? Is it truly because our brains are different? Or is there something else at play?

 

[DeviantChalice]

I am literally taking the points you brought up and expanding on them.

No, you're misunderstanding me and then going in a wholly different direction at full speed.

I never said people can't write things outside of their direct experiences. I was talking about a usual pitfall many writers fall into.

 

[haileytraynor]

Tribbing, frotting, muffing and just three things that people with only an experience of cis het sex will not ever think to add to queer sex scenes.

This is what you said. And so I’m saying well where would a virgin bi female think of that without reading, watching, or doing something about it?

I’ve never heard of those things which is why I bring up the fact that that’s where the bridge of actual experience and research form.

If I have never experience or heard of any of that, how can I as a virgin bi female think of it?

My point is this problem wasn’t just exclusively cis het which is where the research and my jumping off point came from.

I never said that you said that people need experience, but by saying that you do imply that there has to be some area outside of just being bi or being gay.

Which is where I started to think about other points which I decided to share and see if people thought anything of it.

All I was doing was taking your points and conversing on them.

Just because I went in a different direction, doesn’t mean that I didn’t understand you.

I think you misunderstood my approach and assumed I was making a counterpoint but in actuality I was literally just thinking out loud since you brought that point up.

 

[haileytraynor]

There are also plenty of cis het things I have never heard of as again I’m coming from a virgin bi female experience that has none and is very new to the adult world as a whole despite what my writings may imply.

Which is also where I was expanding on and bringing up those thoughts as well. Did I go off on a tangent and steer into a different road?

Yeah I did, but that has to do with my ADD and curious mind, and the want to explore these topics and was hoping people might weigh in their own thoughts and turn this into a really provoking conversation.

 

[haileytraynor]

Actually an embarrassing one is that I for the longest time thought an orgy was just a short way of saying orgasm lol. And then one day I finally googled the definition and learned that no it in fact is not just short for orgasm XD. I think that’s just life though. The older you are the more natural it is for you to learn more, the younger the more ignorant and stupid you are, it’s just a given.

 

[Cuchuilain]

... and you may be a 75 year old grandfather of 17. Thats the beauty of the internet. As regards writing about things you only have personal experience of, I found myself recently writing about spacecraft, other planets, clones, immortality, time travel and people from Nebraska, none of which I could really claim much personal experience of. If a writer cant use her imagination, what's the point?

 

[Testytesterton]

Actually an embarrassing one is that I for the longest time thought an orgy was just a short way of saying orgasm lol. And then one day I finally googled the definition and learned that no it in fact is not just short for orgasm XD. I think that’s just life though. The older you are the more natural it is for you to learn more, the younger the more ignorant and stupid you are, it’s just a given.

Okay. That's all fine. But you are writing with an audience in mind, right? All I or DC was asking are if any writers are writing with a queer audience in mind.

It's fine that conversations diverge, but remember there is no expectation on us to follow you along a path we weren't planning on. Especially when you aren't even breaking your thoughts up into paragraphs.

People seem to be thinking I am saying you need to be gay to write gay scenes, and I am emphatically not. I am saying that your gay scenes might not resonate with a queer audience, because our experiences shape our imaginations. I wrote very hot gay scenes as a closeted queer virgin, but my writing improved exponentially once I had actual sexual experience.

I feel it's improved even more once I started experiencing sex as a lesbian. At least, I write better for the audience I intend to. And yes, this is true for cis het sex as well, but there is a major distinction in how a queer person experiences that sex. I have had sex with women while trying to be a man and it was a constant struggle. If you haven't experienced the horrible feeling of your body not being built for the sex you desire, I cannot fully explain it to you. Sure you can research it, but if it doesn't ring true to you, it will be harder to convey to an audience.

This is true of all writing. If you do not have a diverse swath of lived experiences, then your writing will come off as flat and unrealistic. You can argue that this is unfair, but it won't matter to the audience.

 

[Testytesterton]

... and you may be a 75 year old grandfather of 17. Thats the beauty of the internet. As regards writing about things you only have personal experience of, I found myself recently writing about spacecraft, other planets, clones, immortality, time travel and people from Nebraska, none of which I could really claim much personal experience of. If a writer cant use her imagination, what's the point?

Use your imagination, by all means, but your work will seem more grounded if you add details that feel authentic, and lived experience is the best teacher of that. If you haven't had queer sex, it's not like time travel or cloning or space ships. Your audience will know if your scenarios have any basis in reality. Again, a lot of it is the things you won't even think to include. You can absolutely try to research, but if the acts don't match your desires, how will you tell the authentic from the pornified?

Write whatever excites you, but just remember you are always writing for an audience. You might be able to write for a queer audience, but don't be disappointed if your viewpoints don't resonate with the reader.

 

[DeviantChalice]

I suppose I should get us back on track by actually answering the original question in a non-quippy way.

When I started writing erotica I thought of myself as a cis het man so I wrote "for a cis het audience". One thing I realised though and that Testy helped point out is I wasn't centring the men in what I wrote. Even though I'm writing non-con (which can come across as pretty misogynistic sometimes) a lot of the focus is one how the female victim thinks and feels, which actually means I get a lot of women reading and enjoying my work too.

Anyway I also realised in the last few years that I'm not exactly cis het anyway, and I've been talking to Testy about me writing some queer-focused stuff, which is where my chapters in Bullied come from. The target audience for my writing there is anyone who would relate to the protagonist - a conflicted outcast whose gender and sexuality are a confusing mess they just need to find a way to work out. Not to say no one else can enjoy it, but that's the central current.

 

[haileytraynor]

Okay. That's all fine. But you are writing with an audience in mind, right? All I or DC was asking are if any writers are writing with a queer audience in mind.

It's fine that conversations diverge, but remember there is no expectation on us to follow you along a path we weren't planning on. Especially when you aren't even breaking your thoughts up into paragraphs.

People seem to be thinking I am saying you need to be gay to write gay scenes, and I am emphatically not. I am saying that your gay scenes might not resonate with a queer audience, because our experiences shape our imaginations. I wrote very hot gay scenes as a closeted queer virgin, but my writing improved exponentially once I had actual sexual experience.

I feel it's improved even more once I started experiencing sex as a lesbian. At least, I write better for the audience I intend to. And yes, this is true for cis het sex as well, but there is a major distinction in how a queer person experiences that sex. I have had sex with women while trying to be a man and it was a constant struggle. If you haven't experienced the horrible feeling of your body not being built for the sex you desire, I cannot fully explain it to you. Sure you can research it, but if it doesn't ring true to you, it will be harder to convey to an audience.

This is true of all writing. If you do not have a diverse swath of lived experiences, then your writing will come off as flat and unrealistic. You can argue that this is unfair, but it won't matter to the audience.

I wasn’t saying there was an expectation for you to follow along, but if one of my points interest you it would interest me to give your thoughts on the matter. I didn’t realizing my formatting would affect the outcome of a response, I can fix that easily. But it is interesting to think about what experience exactly is authentic and would help work on the areas you mention.

Are stories enough? Or do you need to actually do the thing in order to truly understand. Is it possible to gain experience by just reading and watching? And if that’s the case can anyone gain that experience?

 

[haileytraynor]

Your point is basically in order to write for a queer audience, you need to know what they want in the first place, right?

So then, how do you know? Is it enough to just take what I want and do that because I am bi?

Or

Is there an experience needed to truly know what a queer audience would want? If so, what’s that experience?

Is it actually doing it? Living it? Learning it?

Can it be learned without doing it?

Of course there is nothing more authentic than actually doing it, but at the same time there are borders to that. And not just with sex but with a lot of the kinks.

 

[Testytesterton]

Your point is basically in order to write for a queer audience, you need to know what they want in the first place, right?

So then, how do you know? Is it enough to just take what I want and do that because I am bi?

Or

Is there an experience needed to truly know what a queer audience would want? If so, what’s that experience?

Is it actually doing it? Living it? Learning it?

Can it be learned without doing it?

Of course there is nothing more authentic than actually doing it, but at the same time there are borders to that. And not just with sex but with a lot of the kinks.

Yes you write what you want to do. But a lot of queer sex is learned by doing, just like everything.

No offense, but you seem to be arguing in terms of fairness that don't apply. It does not matter why a work doesn't resonate with an audience. It only matters if it does. This isn't a cut and dried thing I can give you hard and fast rules for.

I think we are going in circles so I will finish by saying this, I can't tell you how or what to write and I have no intention to. I have offered my opinion formed from my experience, and that's really all I can offer.