Driving a stake

[Beeble42]

How much effort does this actually take - enough to smash the rib cage? Do you have to be abnormally strong to drive a stake into a heart or could a normal person do it. I ask because I don't want people coming back to me and saying this is totally ridiculous. Also the alternative is cutting of a head which is far as I know is immensely time consuming without a samurai sword. If my story was about real vampires I could tempt them into the sunlight but with false vampires that does not work and I like fire even less than I like gore.

 

[Kaitou1412]

While emotionally trying, staking a chest is as physically difficult as staking the ground for a tent. Bare handed would require a fair bit of strength, but using a hammer makes it manageable for even a child. The only way it won't break the ribs is if the stake is small or the ribs have been expanded.

Although, depending on the lore used as a base, drowning and silver have been shown effective against vampires. And decapitation can be made easy with just a fast moving vehicle and some piano wire. How are your feelings on those?

 

[Trugbild]

maybe a pikeaxe made of wood or a spear

I like it the most, if vampires just get paralyzed by getting a stake in their heart.
After paralyzing, there would be some ways to kill them (decapation, sunlight, burying crossroads)

drowning and silver

never heard of that...
In my opinion silver is just for werewolfs.
And in some myth they can't pass running water.

 

[Yarkoz]

If you're talking about smashing a rib cage, like crushing the ribs into the chest cavity, that would take a fair amount of force. The joints between the ribs, the vertebrae, and the sternum are flexible but resilient, and the muscles and tissue that surround the chest are hard to get through. All of that force would be deflect around the cavity, as the rib cage evolved to do. I'm not even sure if the traditional wooden stake and mallet combo in vampire movies is enough -- unless the stake is incredibly sharp, it would probably splinter and cause tremendous amounts blunt force trauma and bruising before it even got through the muscle. Even then, most of the heart is protected by the sternum (contrary to popular belief, the heart is more in the dead center of the chest rather than off to the left side in most people) and its own tough network of tissues (mediastinal cavity, pericardium, pericardial cavity, etc). You really need a knife or something to hit between the ribs to really do damage, because the ribs would even deflect blades. Hell, if you shoot a gun wrong, the bullet bounces off the ribs or muscle without going through -- you need decent aim. This isn't to say that neither of these things wouldn't cause damage, from which said vampire would be disabled, but they wouldn't be out of the picture yet. Kaitou's right, piano wire or razor wire and a good trap with a fast car might be the best way to go.

 

[Beeble42]

Thanks for all your replies, especially Yarkoz. I did try look it up on the net but obviously experts are hard to find. I thought it would be difficult. The reason I preferred the stake through the heart is, that to me, it is far less gory than decapitation and this has to take place in a bedroom so involving a vehicle is not practical. The killer is not immensely strong but would want to use a traditional method of killing and sunlight and water won't work on someone who isn't actually a vampire. So am I assuming the best bet is a very thin piece of wood, thinner than the tip of a pool cue and sharpened, luckily making it past the rib cage as smashing the rib cage or making it through the sternum are virtually impossible?

 

[Trugbild]

I could also imagine a cast-iron poker (not sure, if that is the right word) to kill or paralyze a vampire (something like that: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157lG9 DzL._SL1500_.jpg)
Maybe a romantic environment like a bear-skin (imitate) in front of a fireplace



Another idea (wouldn't fit on new vampires)
Vampires are dead (or at least undead)
The structure of a dead torso should be some different from a living one.
Degenerated muscles and bone marrow.
They regenerate injuries and stay "alive", but does it also mean, they still have the exact anatomy?
Do they really need their muscles? They get their supernatural power from the blood.

 

[Kaitou1412]

In my opinion silver is just for werewolfs.

Silver is considered a pure metal, which makes it very effective against many kinds of supernatural forces. For the most part though, silver only had the ability to restrict the movements of a vampire or strip it of its powers. It didn't become fatal until more recently, with works like The Lost Boys (1987 movie) and Hellsing (manga series), along with the short-lived drama series Moonlight giving it a slow killing, kryptonite-like quality. Additionally, The Strain Trilogy follows the idea that a stake only works if it's made of silver.

And in some myth they can't pass running water.

That's also true in some cases, though North American and European folklore say it doesn't affect them at all. The latter does, however, state drowning is fatal to a vampire, and in the original Dracula, even the Count himself could be killed by drowning.

Like I said, it depends greatly on the source material. I could rant forever on the differences, especially now that the creature's sexual undertones are being substituted for romantic overtones. The very least I'll say is that some stories don't even require it be through the heart. In some stories is the stake is used only to open the chest, while others went for the mouth, and still others the stomach.

I'm not even sure if the traditional wooden stake and mallet combo in vampire movies is enough

It depends on the hammer in question. A heavy head with that perfect handle length can deliver enough force on the necessary area to drive the stake, and it does help if the stake is made of a dense wood or silver. If all of this is factored into the equation with our protagonist's strength, and it could help to have gravity aid the drive, then the hardest part becomes the initial drive, when the stake has to break the skin. Furthermore, there is a vulnerability in the human body concerning the heart. If struck, even a fist can deliver enough enough impact to a heart and stun the victim completely. It's the same location doctors and paramedics attempt to strike when they need to inject a needle into the heart - precisely because it bypasses most of the defenses. The main drawback is it's tiny, barely larger than the circumference of a finger, and is made even smaller when approached head on; for this reason, striking from above is preferred in both cases.

Beeble, it's tricky, but we've laid out your best options:

Injection-style staking.
Drowning.
Bludgeoning or stabbing by silver.
Decapitation with a car and wire.

For the last one, think outside the box a little. This is merely a suggestion, but a simple approach is to use the afterglow to your advantage.

 

[Yarkoz]

Thanks for all your replies, especially Yarkoz. I did try look it up on the net but obviously experts are hard to find. I thought it would be difficult. The reason I preferred the stake through the heart is, that to me, it is far less gory than decapitation and this has to take place in a bedroom so involving a vehicle is not practical. The killer is not immensely strong but would want to use a traditional method of killing and sunlight and water won't work on someone who isn't actually a vampire. So am I assuming the best bet is a very thin piece of wood, thinner than the tip of a pool cue and sharpened, luckily making it past the rib cage as smashing the rib cage or making it through the sternum are virtually impossible?

I'm actually a nurse in training so feel free

If you want to stick with wood, yes something thin, very dense and hard wood with a sharpened point. A metal tip would work best, like some kind of nail embedded in the wood or a metal spiker that covers the tip. Optimal heart-penetrating power would be between the 4th and 5th ribs (4th intercostal space) -- that is where the dramatic heart injection in the movies (intracardiac injections) are supposed to be that Kaitou mentioned. You'd still have muscle and connective tissue to penetrate, but that'd be your killer's best option.

Furthermore, there is a vulnerability in the human body concerning the heart. If struck, even a fist can deliver enough enough impact to a heart and stun the victim completely. It's the same location doctors and paramedics attempt to strike when they need to inject a needle into the heart - precisely because it bypasses most of the defenses. The main drawback is it's tiny, barely larger than the circumference of a finger, and is made even smaller when approached head on; for this reason, striking from above is preferred in both cases.

You can, but it usually isn't enough to stop the heart in most cases unless the killer has tremendous strength. Electric shock is more effective, but unless the killer is carrying around a jacked AED, I don't that's what Beeble is looking for.

I could also imagine a cast-iron poker (not sure, if that is the right word) to kill or paralyze a vampire (something like that: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157lG9 DzL._SL1500_.jpg)
Maybe a romantic environment like a bear-skin (imitate) in front of a fireplace



Another idea (wouldn't fit on new vampires)
Vampires are dead (or at least undead)
The structure of a dead torso should be some different from a living one.
Degenerated muscles and bone marrow.
They regenerate injuries and stay "alive", but does it also mean, they still have the exact anatomy?
Do they really need their muscles? They get their supernatural power from the blood.

Love the hot poker idea -- maybe have one made entirely of silver? And would vampire have that level of decay? They aren't zombies. I agree though they would have a different anatomy and certainly physiology -- many organs and systems would be atrophied.

On a side note, speaking of vampire hunters, I'd like to imagine that, if they were real, they would have to take pre-med and anatomy classes to to their job right

 

[Trugbild]

Love the hot poker idea -- maybe have one made entirely of silver?

Cast-iron is more common, so there is a chance to grab a weapon without being well prepared (but silver would fit nice in an high society environment). Maybe there could be different consequences (like Kaitou mentioned, some myths are almost new, created by authors and moviemakers; it's your story and you are free to modify the myths to the needs of your story)

And would vampire have that level of decay? They aren't zombies.

They aren't zombies and I don't think, they rot and stink.
I think, it is in Vampire The Masquerade, where the vampires have to "use" the blood they consume to appear more human (warm skin and so on). With that assumption, most vampires probably wouldn't care much about their inner life.

 

[Beeble42]

This topic has given me better replies than I could ever hoped for and many of the methods I might use in different stories. I absolutely loved Vampire The Masquerade particularly the crazy vampires. I've also considered fiction based on Video Games and VTM would be a good candidate. The red hot silver poker idea is really good but I don't think I have an easy heat source unless a microwave would work but then you would need some gloves so I prefer my metal cold.. The killer in this story has purchased their weapon on that day and could maybe have modified it. I am not sure how easy it would be to get hold of a silver sharp tip to bolt on to a shard of wood so maybe some pool cue cut and sharpened with a knife is my best option. The only silver I know about at a remotely reasonable price is cutlery and I am not sure how easy it would be to break off a prong of a silver fork?

 

[Kaitou1412]

You can, but it usually isn't enough to stop the heart in most cases unless the killer has tremendous strength.

That's why I said "stun the victim," not "stop the heart." Even a young Dolph Lundgren striking that spot was only able to cause swelling of the heart. However, it's still a common teaching point in military training and a highly coveted target by martial artists for the impact's ability to immobilize an opponent long enough to deliver a power strike (as well as cause them to subconsciously tighten their guards around their hearts, exposing the liver and perhaps the floating ribs if they tighten it enough). Driving a stake is certainly different, but between boxers who achieve this paralysis, war hammers, the sharpened edge of metal or dense wood, and the fact that the stake is traditionally long enough to penetrate all the way to the base of the coffin (and thereby heavier than a simple tent stake or the media depictions - this and the common mallet are predominantly safety concerns, it was almost always war hammers and fence stakes traditionally), and I genuinely cannot imagine much beyond the first drive as a challenge.

The only silver I know about at a remotely reasonable price is cutlery

If we're discussing kitchen tools, go for a silver ice pick. Common, already sharp, notorious as a murder weapon since the invention of the refrigerator, and close in size and shape to the iron rod found in the Bulgarian "vampire" corpse. Plus it'll last longer than a broken fork. The only drawback is the pick will become distinct and make it easy for a forensics team to identify it as the murder weapon, but any character about to spontaneously commit murder isn't going to worry about that.

 

[Beeble42]

That's why I said "stun the victim," not "stop the heart." Even a young Dolph Lundgren striking that spot was only able to cause swelling of the heart. However, it's still a common teaching point in military training and a highly coveted target by martial artists for the impact's ability to immobilize an opponent long enough to deliver a power strike (as well as cause them to subconsciously tighten their guards around their hearts, exposing the liver and perhaps the floating ribs if they tighten it enough). Driving a stake is certainly different, but between boxers who achieve this paralysis, war hammers, the sharpened edge of metal or dense wood, and the fact that the stake is traditionally long enough to penetrate all the way to the base of the coffin (and thereby heavier than a simple tent stake or the media depictions - this and the common mallet are predominantly safety concerns, it was almost always war hammers and fence stakes traditionally), and I genuinely cannot imagine much beyond the first drive as a challenge.



If we're discussing kitchen tools, go for a silver ice pick. Common, already sharp, notorious as a murder weapon since the invention of the refrigerator, and close in size and shape to the iron rod found in the Bulgarian "vampire" corpse. Plus it'll last longer than a broken fork. The only drawback is the pick will become distinct and make it easy for a forensics team to identify it as the murder weapon, but any character about to spontaneously commit murder isn't going to worry about that.

I didn't know ice picks were silver. It sounds like the best idea yet. Something common and traditional and not too gory but would you have to attach it to something to reach the heart. I'll look into it. Forensics is not a worry as it is unlikely that the killer will escape, unless someone adds a thread in which they do.

 

[raziel83]

Vampires in media have changed a lot. Older books and movies in particular have the "zombie like corpse" vampires that look horrifying and corpse like with pale cold skin. (Think Nosferatu.) Whenever writers wish to focus more on the "sexy-vampire" side the "undeadness" is reduced or sometimes even ignored completely. (I guess some people just don't think that sex with a corpse is hot...) But we are talking about fictional creatures so your "Vampires" can be whatever you want and think works best for the story you want to write. (I for one would not go for sparkly Twilight vampires, but that is just me.)

 

[Beeble42]

Vampires in media have changed a lot. Older books and movies in particular have the "zombie like corpse" vampires that look horrifying and corpse like with pale cold skin. (Think Nosferatu.) Whenever writers wish to focus more on the "sexy-vampire" side the "undeadness" is reduced or sometimes even ignored completely. (I guess some people just don't think that sex with a corpse is hot...) But we are talking about fictional creatures so your "Vampires" can be whatever you want and think works best for the story you want to write. (I for one would not go for sparkly Twilight vampires, but that is just me.)

The character in question was drawn in by "Twilight", and indeed still loves it, but that sparked their interest in vampire mythology so that they are more inclined to believe in darker beings with the original mythology than the more 'sparkly' type. I read somewhere (because I switched off about an hour into the first film) that you have to completely dismember "Twilight" vampires but, apart from trying to stay away from the gore, that would require considerable effort and time so simple traditional methods are better.