Info Dumps vs. Proper Nouns

Orpheus

Orpheus

Virgin
I'm drafting a fantasy story (2nd POV) that uses a a fair few proper nouns, and I keep rewriting the first few pages because I can't decide how to handle them.

Info dumps are, to be honest, the way that feels easiest/more natural for me as the writer to explain these proper nouns, but I know they're notoriously boring for a reader. Is it better to avoid info dumps, even if that means the reader won't know what a Destyn is until several chapters in, even though the concept of said Destyn is more or less the hook of my whole story?

Let me know what y'all think. It would be an enormous help!
 
Ah that's a classic problem

My way of handling info dumps has always been to make the reader want to know what it is before you give them the information.

Unless it is absolutely vital for the reader to know what something is right now, I think having them figure it out via context is better

Now, the example you bring is a bit tricky, since you say it is the hook of the whole thing. In general having to figure out the premise of something can be an amazing experience. The novel of Jurassic Park comes to mind. The novel itself doesn't explain that is about Dinosaurs at all until a decent chunk in. (But then again there is no way you would start reading Jurassic Park without knowing that it is about Dinosaurs)

Basically in that event I would say, yes a infodump is required to get the reader on board with what you have planned.


An alternative solution would be to have a optional glossary chapter in which you explain all the terminology
 
Be warned! The sad truth is that if your readers are anything like me, they probably won't read your info dump even if you do write it. That early in the story, I haven't even decided whether it's worth spending time on. If you start out with an info dump, it's likely I'll get bored and move on to the next story, because I'm easily distracted, impatient, and annoyingly picky.

The #1 most important thing you, as an author, have to do is make the first chapter incredibly interesting, or sexy, or weird, or something. First get me invested, and then you can surprise me with your 10000 word treatise on the differences in mating habits between mainland and islander Destyns. I don't even have to understand exactly what's going on! Presenting a big mystery is an incredible hook!

Prologues are a very common way for fantasy authors to ease their readers into their stories. Have something amazing happen that features a Destyn as its central piece, but doesn't include your protagonist just yet. It should both hook the reader on your story and be a place where you can naturally lay down the first basics of your world, and why it's special. If you want to be really slick, you could even reconnect to it X chapters later. Alternatively, having an (at first!) clueless protagonist is a great way to ease people into your world, because it gives you plenty of excuse for the plot or more knowledgeable characters to show things to them.

Most mainstream blockbuster movies do this too. They include a small, easily digestible prologue to buy a little goodwill and get the audience invested before the actual story begins. Some great examples are The Matrix (Trinity is arrested), 28 Days Later (animal liberation activists break into a lab), The Fellowship of the Ring (the War of the Last Alliance), and, yes, Jurassic Park (a terrible, unseen, caged creature).
 
You need to give people something to connect to. Is a destyn a terrifying predator, a supernatural entity, a type of person, a member of an organization? You don't have to infodump every detail but it should be obvious from context the broad strokes.

TheLowKing said:
Most mainstream blockbuster movies do this too. They include a small, easily digestible prologue to buy a little goodwill and get the audience invested before the actual story begins. Some great examples are The Matrix (Trinity is arrested), 28 Days Later (animal liberation activists break into a lab), The Fellowship of the Ring (the War of the Last Alliance), and, yes, Jurassic Park (a terrible, unseen, caged creature).
Click to expand...

This is broadly known as a Cold Open, its a very useful device. However, the Fellowship is example is a classic Info Dump, it's just done by showing in addition to voiceover.

Probably the most famous Info Dump openings are the Star Wars text crawls. As soon as I mentioned it, you probably heard John Williams' music in your head.
 
Gambio said:
Ah that's a classic problem

My way of handling info dumps has always been to make the reader want to know what it is before you give them the information.

Unless it is absolutely vital for the reader to know what something is right now, I think having them figure it out via context is better

Now, the example you bring is a bit tricky, since you say it is the hook of the whole thing. In general having to figure out the premise of something can be an amazing experience. The novel of Jurassic Park comes to mind. The novel itself doesn't explain that is about Dinosaurs at all until a decent chunk in. (But then again there is no way you would start reading Jurassic Park without knowing that it is about Dinosaurs)

Basically in that event I would say, yes a infodump is required to get the reader on board with what you have planned.

An alternative solution would be to have a optional glossary chapter in which you explain all the terminology
Click to expand...

I do intend to have a glossary, but I don't want readers having to rely on referencing that. I see what you mean with the Jurassic Park comparison, and i'd like to avoid infodumping if possible as you recommended, because I have a nasty habit of relying on them that I'm trying to break.

To summarize, Destyn are this:
Destyn is a title given by a Magnan (read: king) to his most loyal vassals after they have sworn a Vow of Fealty (which must be consummated within 14 days). Destyn are given the privilege of addressing their Magnan with a degree of familiarity akin to good friends rather than as a superior, in addition to access to several Destyn exclusive amenities and boons both inside and outside the palace. Magnan place great trust in these Destyn, and rely on them for much in the way of political, martial, emotional, and, often times, sexual support.

TheLowKing said:
Be warned! The sad truth is that if your readers are anything like me, they probably won't read your info dump even if you do write it. That early in the story, I haven't even decided whether it's worth spending time on. If you start out with an info dump, it's likely I'll get bored and move on to the next story, because I'm easily distracted, impatient, and annoyingly picky.

The #1 most important thing you, as an author, have to do is make the first chapter incredibly interesting, or sexy, or weird, or something. First get me invested, and then you can surprise me with your 10000 word treatise on the differences in mating habits between mainland and islander Destyns. I don't even have to understand exactly what's going on! Presenting a big mystery is an incredible hook!

Prologues are a very common way for fantasy authors to ease their readers into their stories. Have something amazing happen that features a Destyn as its central piece, but doesn't include your protagonist just yet. It should both hook the reader on your story and be a place where you can naturally lay down the first basics of your world, and why it's special. If you want to be really slick, you could even reconnect to it X chapters later. Alternatively, having an (at first!) clueless protagonist is a great way to ease people into your world, because it gives you plenty of excuse for the plot or more knowledgeable characters to show things to them.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I've heard similar advice about readers skipping infodumps especially at the beginning of a story. I think part of the problem I'm running into is that the player character is a Magnan (King), and while they are new to the role and have much to learn, their father was one before them and it wouldn't make sense to have the protagonist be the oh so coveted clueless protagonist (well, maybe if he was written an airhead or a bit of an idiot, but he's not ;)).

At the start of the story the protagonist's small island nation has only one Destyn, and the nation has been at peace since his grandfather's days... Perhaps I could do something like showing the difference in how a regular vassal communicates with the Magnan when compared to the Destyn and go from there.
 
Martic said:
To summarize, Destyn are this:
Destyn is a title given by a Magnan (read: king) to his most loyal vassals after they have sworn a Vow of Fealty (which must be consummated within 14 days). Destyn are given the privilege of addressing their Magnan with a degree of familiarity akin to good friends rather than as a superior, in addition to access to several Destyn exclusive amenities and boons both inside and outside the palace. Magnan place great trust in these Destyn, and rely on them for much in the way of political, martial, emotional, and, often times, sexual support.

...

At the start of the story the protagonist's small island nation has only one Destyn, and the nation has been at peace since his grandfather's days... Perhaps I could do something like showing the difference in how a regular vassal communicates with the Magnan when compared to the Destyn and go from there.
Click to expand...

This is a personal opinion, but I'm not sure things necessarily need new names or entirely new words (even in a Fantasy setting), when they are close to what exist in real life. If the Magnan is the King, maybe call him King. And the Destyn seems close to a Chief Advisor, High Counselor, Hand of the King, Consigliere, etc. just with sex. It might be easier just to give them a title that people would recognize and then use the story to explain that 'in this story, the Grand Masters also fuck.'
 
Dissonant Soundtrack said:
This is a personal opinion, but I'm not sure things necessarily need new names or entirely new words (even in a Fantasy setting), when they are close to what exist in real life. If the Magnan is the King, maybe call him King. And the Destyn seems close to a Chief Advisor, High Counselor, Hand of the King, Consigliere, etc. just with sex. It might be easier just to give them a title that people would recognize and then use the story to explain that 'in this story, the Grand Masters also fuck.'
Click to expand...

I'm pretty set on the Destyn terminology staying, as calling them Knights or Hand of the King doesn't ring true in this universe. Even somebody like a chambermaid can be a Destyn, so having a chambermaid be a maid and Hand of the King seems kinda strange since that term already has certain connotations, and it can't be something like wives or girlfriends because men can hold the position as well.

To give the example that inspired this 'Destyn" concept, the video game series Suikoden has several characters referred to as "The 108 Stars of Destiny" (wonder why I chose the name Destyn? lol) which itself is based off a Chinese(?) novel. In that context, the Stars of Destiny can be any important people who rally under your banner, from musicians to warriors.

Maybe if I changed Destyn from an official title recognized by a king, that would help the concept make more sense? It's just difficult, because being a Destyn is akin to being a symbol of status and renown to other vassals and common folk alike, so if it isn't a title that is granted it makes the Vow and notoriety aspect a bit strange.

I do see your point about overcomplicating titles for no reason. I'd like to see what others in this thread think if they don't mind chipping in
 
I think the title of Destyn is fine. I do think you need to explain it. Ways to do this are:

1. An info dump.
2. Have a Destyn doing something and begin to contextually explain why being a Destyn means they do those things.
3. Have characters talk about what a Destyn is/does, or
4. As a more graceful version of 2 or 3, have characters talk about a Destyn in a way that lets the reader begin to piece together what a Destyn does while letting their mind begin to fill in the blanks, to be corrected as it becomes appropriate. Let the reader think "Oh, so the Destyn is a maid" before it becomes clear it's more than that.

As a reader, I'm okay being allowed to work my brain a little and come to conclusions. Then, once the reader has a little time to digest their thoughts and get invested, you can feel free to describe in plain words exactly what a Destyn is later on, if you need to.

I don't think an info dump is necessarily wrong, but I do think it'll turn off the readers if you put it before they have a chance to start caring. Fair or not, if I see a story that opens with an info dump I feel like could have been explained by showing instead of saying, I'll assume the writer is too invested in their story as a lore or concept vehicle rather than a story that will entertain me and check out early.
 
The best advice that I ever got is that lore should be directly tied to the scene to drive drama.
Example: you want to talk about boring court etiquette.
Solution give the reader a flashback to a scene where the main character learned this in childhood. Something like “they were seated at the table and for every wrong answer they gave another one of their beloved dolls is tossed into the great fireplace.”

It informs the reader about why a character is the way that they are and the reader still also had to learn about court etiquette.

PS trauma is spicy. Snap your characters like a glowstick and watch them shine.
 
Martic said:
Indeed, I've heard similar advice about readers skipping infodumps especially at the beginning of a story. I think part of the problem I'm running into is that the player character is a Magnan (King), and while they are new to the role and have much to learn, their father was one before them and it wouldn't make sense to have the protagonist be the oh so coveted clueless protagonist (well, maybe if he was written an airhead or a bit of an idiot, but he's not ;)).
Click to expand...
Hmm, yeah, the cluelessness protagonist approach probably doesn't work so well, then. In fact, Destyn sounds like a concept literally every character in the story would be familiar with. On the other hand, it sounds like a simple enough concept, and doesn't require a lot of explanation, like Dissonant Soundtrack alluded to. Maybe just be very matter of factly about it. For example, have an official ceremony, "Lady <whatever>, I dub thee Destyn, now and forever, and let none blah blah blah", and then in a small private moment later (during a celebratory feast?) the Magnan tells her something like "I look forward to seeing you in my bedroom blah blah".

...OK, at second glance, that's super clunky. Maybe don't do that. :P Still, I still think you can get away with simply having the title slowly getting defined in the first chapter or two, and not explaining it as a Special Thing at all.

Dissonant Soundtrack said:
Probably the most famous Info Dump openings are the Star Wars text crawls. As soon as I mentioned it, you probably heard John Williams' music in your head.
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Ha, I did have a paragraph about Star Wars as the most well-known counter-example in my post, but it was already too long. :P All three of the films in the original trilogy do follow the text crawl with a prologue: Leia gets captured, Luke gets lost while on Hoth, and the rescue from Jabba, respectively. At second glance, you're also half right about Fellowship, it kind of does both too: a voice-over talking about the ring, plus a prologueic(?) battle to catch our attention.
 
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In my opinion, it's fine if it's just one or two terms. What you don't want is a huge infodump with many new names and nouns that are irrelevant to the story at that point in time.

I also feel much less inclined to wade through info dumps on this website compared to novels because, let's face it, nearly every story is unfinished or poorly written. Getting invested is just not worth the time.
 
Infodumping is fine if you establish that you've got the goods.
Give the readers one or two sex scenes before introducing too much full-on worldbuilding, else you'll stretch their patience...
 
Martic said:
At the start of the story the protagonist's small island nation has only one Destyn, and the nation has been at peace since his grandfather's days... Perhaps I could do something like showing the difference in how a regular vassal communicates with the Magnan when compared to the Destyn and go from there.
Click to expand...
Showing a comparison, perhaps with a formal entry of a regular vassal and then the Destyn, could work in multiple ways -- how does holding Court work, what people and events are important and could drive the story forward.

Another way is to have a side conversation highlighting the difference. Perhaps an experienced member of Court (even a lowly functionary) could be straightening out a novice or first-timer about precedence. If there's only one Destyn at the start, maybe there's a reference to some famous past Destyn/Magnan pair that clarifies what's going on.
 
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