Plot vs Sexy Stuff: How do you balance it?

[RinTezukasLittleGoldfishCracker]

Hello everyone.

A few months ago I decided to start conceptualizing a very obviously erotic fantasy story which revolved around a growing group of women and a male protag in a dark fantasy world. The female characters were each written in essence to serve as a vehicle to explore a different fetish/kink, and as you increased your affinity with them, you'd unlock increasingly erotic scenes, going all the way from some light nudity to full sex scenes.

As with many (most?) stories on this site, the plot was equally barebones and was written in such a way that sexy scenes could be easily stumbled across with minimal character development or worldbuilding. Hell, even the very first scene, the intro, involved a crawl through a sex dungeon, followed by an ENF scene with the deuteragonist, followed by an ENM scene, and so on and so on...

To sum it up, the plot and characters weren't compelling, but the story was easy to digest and the main characters were just walking fetish dolls. I realized recently that I kind of hate this, my brain has somehow taken the non-existent worldbuilding and transformed it into something that I now am itching to explore in full. I have so many storylines and interesting characters I want to see realized in writing instead of just floating around in my head.

That being said, I am also a horny fucker and I would like to include LOTS of sexual scenes like I had originally planned. So now, I have this idea of making a dark (borderline horror) medieval fantasy story with a focus on the cast of characters you meet along the journey through a lore-heavy world, that happens to include a lot of ENF and ENM and sex scenes. It's a fantasy first and foremost but it's tinged with sexual content (magic is a pact system that can involve doing sexy favors for demons and certain races are sex-crazed and some characters don't like wearing clothes and there's brothels on every corner, you get the picture I hope? there'll be plenty of sex) It'll be a weird world with all kinds of esoteric magic and horrific rituals and symbolism and other stuff that might not be exactly the most appealing to the mainstream, but I find it personally really fun and unique. The plot will still be easy to follow and simple, but there's now actually some tension/literary devices/flavor involved instead of being a bland collection of sex scenes. I want it to be easy to follow for those who just want sex scenes but a rich world for those who pay attention. But this leaves me with a few worries:

1. Most importantly, is this the kind of thing that people would even be interested in reading? It's been done before so it's not like I'd be the first to do it, but it's also not a common thing. Generally it seems people want either all plot or all erotica. I won't lie, I plan for the story to be fairly slow burn, spending several chapters in a row without any sexual content at all. Would anyone read anything like that or is the ultimate end goal for site users to read about virtual titties, get a nut off, then leave? Am I alone in thinking that virtual titties attached to a well-written character are much more appealing? Are there any stories like that on the site now you'd recommend?

2. Is CHYOA the right site for something like this? It would be a game mode story with lots of variables and I find this site to be very beginner friendly when it comes to learning how to use conditions and all that, so that's a plus there. But are there other sites, like ones that aren't catered towards erotica but do allow sexual content? I'm aware of Twine and other interactive story game programs but the learning curve seems much steeper than on here. I see how non-erotic stories are viewed on this site, so I can definitely see that I'll have to be careful not to get too light on sexual content.

3. Do CHYOA readers (aka mostly men) like drama? I've come to notice that my fellow men are not interested in sappy romance scenes or angsty catfights or helping a character through mental struggles like I am. These things are usually seen as feminine from what I understand. My ideas for the cast to explore are mainly internal struggles, like a character who is trying to understand whether she is a human or not despite being a clockwork android whose only purpose is conquest or a soulless woman trying to find a purpose despite being completely lost. I have a character who I prefer to write tamer scenes for. Are CHYOA readers generally interested in "cute" romance scenes with sexual payoff that comes many chapters later? Or is sex for a quick nut always the endgoal?

4. Is it jarring reading a dramatic story that then cuts to a goofy ENF scene? While I do want to make my characters suffer with their dramatic and sometimes dark conflicts, I also like the idea of having a character try to practice pyromancy only to have her clothes melted off when she botches the spell. I think the format I want to tell the story in will only cause more problems because I want to allow the reader to do "quests" (chapter chains/little side stories) in any order they want, accessible from "hubworlds". Now, they might end up doing a super serious side story and then a stupid dorky "waaah I got caught in a string trap and all my clothes got shredded" side story immediately after. You can see how this might be jarring right? Even if I decide to change the format, it's still just a side effect of the clashing dark worldbuilding plus the lighthearted content I want to include.

Anyway, I think that was quite enough of a ramble. Having said all that, I'm curious, does any part of my story sound like something you would want to read? Have you personally dealt with toeing a fine line between plot and erotica as an author? I'm really interested in hearing anyone's thoughts about this, I appreciate anyone who takes time out of their day to consider my concerns even when I have trouble in the way of brevity. Thank you.

 

[Gambio]

I'm a big fan of that actually and it's how I handle most of my stories. Subjugation Tournament would be the poster child of that style lol.

The best way I find in doing so is to concentrate on the plot but look out for sexy opportunities and if something arises take advantage of it mercilessly.

Basically you aren't forcing the porn, you let it come to you naturally. Of course a world operating on sex logic makes that much easier lol


When it comes to mixing drama and comedy, I think it's easier to go from Comedy to drama then vice versa. I also think a general lighthearted story with some dark moments thrown in works better then a dark story that suddenly has comedic moments. Basically it takes a bit of practice but it is definitely possible to pull off. Hell, my favorite Eroge developer does so all the time.

As for drama, I think you might sell your readers short here. Yes, this is a porn side, folks here want to wank. But after they have wanked they are usually a bit more emphatic to the characters. Hell, Harem Hotel for example is full of drama and the readers get really invested in the characters.

 

[android1966]

Personally, I want to read and write stories with plots and action outside of the sex scenes. Sure, the sex scenes can be frequent and extensive, but to really appreciate those scenes, I want character building so I feel invested in the protagonist.

 

[RinTezukasLittleGoldfishCracker]

Personally, I want to read and write stories with plots and action outside of the sex scenes. Sure, the sex scenes can be frequent and extensive, but to really appreciate those scenes, I want character building so I feel invested in the protagonist.

Ok, interesting. Off topic from the original theme of the thread: You said you want character building, are you at all interested in second person stories where "you" are the protagonist? I find it kind of difficult to write a compelling 2nd person protag even though that's my ideal for this project, because I don't want to be like "You feel this" or "You said this" because it can make it seem as if you aren't actually the protagonist at all and are actually just a character called "you" if that makes sense.

I've considered doing things 2 ways: having a mostly silent protagonist who emotes through body language and stays as neutral as possible when it comes to conflicts, leaving the character building up to the reader through the chapter choices. But the protagonist can't be a quiet, blank slate in a dramatic, interpersonal plot, can it? It's also a ton of work on my end, with the writing and coding aspect and there's just too many chapter breaks necessary.

OR, doing it like I mentioned previously, having a character who stays mostly neutral but has a presence and a voice of their own, which is guided and refined by chapter choices the reader makes. This is more practical, with less chapter breaks and player choice, and I see it done in most other 2nd person stories, but I don't feel as connected to the protag if they're supposed to be me, but they're also not me...

Sorry, I rambled again. Which do you prefer? Neither? 2nd person isn't for everyone, but I love it, specifically for CYOA stories.

 

[Hvast]

2nd person is either A) for readers who want to experience self-insert or B) for readers who want to roleplay a character.

For the A category, writing "you feel X" is always a deal breaker. They want to imagine what they would feel in a certain situation not be told what they feel.

The B category is way more forgiving

 

[lady-lux]

I've wondered a lot about this balance as well. In the end, I think it's really down to the individual reader/writer, not to mention, that the same person can want different things at different times as well. So I guess maybe the only "right" balance when you're writing is the one that comes naturally to you? Since no one answer will be "right" for every reader every time.

In my writing here, I've ended up going more plot-heavy, since I think the type of story I'm going for works better with some time to build up tension. But I've often wondered if it's just too boring for people to get through!

2nd person is either A) for readers who want to experience self-insert or B) for readers who want to roleplay a character.

For the A category, writing "you feel X" is always a deal breaker. They want to imagine what they would feel in a certain situation not be told what they feel.

The B category is way more forgiving

I think this is exactly right - it depends whether or not "you" is really "you", thrown into the story's scenario, or if "you are <this character, this age, this job, married to this person>", etc. Either can be very immersive, as a way to put the point of view of the story right in the middle of what's happening and have that sense of immediacy.

But it can be difficult to write for the same reason - the narration can only describe details that "you" could or would perceive, whereas a third-person narrator has a bit more freedom to "see" the wider scene. And even the way "you" interpret the things you see will involve some characterisation that might break someone's immersion.

 

[RinTezukasLittleGoldfishCracker]

When it comes to mixing drama and comedy, I think it's easier to go from Comedy to drama then vice versa. I also think a general lighthearted story with some dark moments thrown in works better then a dark story that suddenly has comedic moments.

You're definitely right. Really, when I say "it's dark", it's... I dunno. It's hard to describe. It's high fantasy but with a lot of horror influence. If you've ever played TLOZ Majora's Mask, it reminds me of that personally. Majora's Mask is a kid's game but at the same time there's undead zombie creatures and a massive smiling moon that's going to crash into the earth and if you don't stop it everyone's gonna die and creepy masks and all that. Despite all this, I still wouldn't say it's a scary or grim-dark game, which is the kind of feeling I'm aiming for in my project. It's just weird man! It's a colorful and pretty world where there's always something lurking under the surface even though most of the characters are kind of oblivious to it. "Otherworldly", like stepping onto a battlefield on a bright sunny day 100 years after the war and knowing that thousands died there even if you never witnessed any of it.

You could even compare it to Skyrim, which isn't a dark game by any means, it's pretty standard medieval fantasy, but read into the lore or do some of the Daedric side quests, and things can turn to the horrific pretty quick. And then 5 minutes later you could be doing a quest involving a talking dog or taking part in a drinking contest with the god of debauchery.

I think I may definitely need to take out some of the horror elements (which pains the hell out of me because I love the ideas so damn much) after my initial draft because I can see myself going too far. As it stands right now though, the planned story seems to have a good balance. We'll see in 2046 when I actually finish the thing.

Also, I have an unrelated question. Is there somewhere on this forum that I can discuss my ideas? I'd love to know what other people think about them before I start writing. I see the "Story Ideas" board but it seems to be mainly for ideas you want to dump for other people to pick up and the "Story Feedback" board seems to be for stories that are already written and published.

 

[RinTezukasLittleGoldfishCracker]

But I've often wondered if it's just too boring for people to get through!

But it can be difficult to write for the same reason - the narration can only describe details that "you" could or would perceive, whereas a third-person narrator has a bit more freedom to "see" the wider scene. And even the way "you" interpret the things you see will involve some characterisation that might break someone's immersion.

Thank you for the reply. I want to respond to two things you said but I couldn't figure out how to do the formatting properly so sorry for the awkward quoting job above haha.

1) You say you wonder if the plot aspects of your stories bore people. What makes you say this? Do you see less engagement with the non-sexual chapters you publish? Or is it just the fear that a lot of us writers have, that what we write isn't entertaining enough?

2) Yes, 2nd person is limiting but I think it's limiting in such a way that's absolutely perfect for the kind of story I want to write. The perspective is limited to things that the protag can directly sense, just like real life, which can be very disorienting and mysterious. You never know exactly what someone is thinking, you can't see the demon lurking behind the wall or you don't know if someone you trusted is talking about you behind your back which can lead to dramatic reveals. Not to say this can't be accomplished in something like 3rd person limited but I think emotional or sex scenes are so much more impactful when written as if you are part of the scene, even if it isn't "you you". You caused this character to feel this way, you made this character do this, it was your actions that led to this ending, etc. It's like playing a character in a video game. You might not have a say on everything the character does or the way they carry themself or their past, but your actions through the gameplay allow you to take on their role and make your own choices. If you've ever played Telltale's The Walking Dead series, you don't get to decide if Lee is a criminal, but you get to decide how he goes about his life as a convict, deciding if you want to lean into an aggressive nature or atone for your crimes. I just couldn't see myself writing a CYOA story in anything but 2nd person.

From the feedback in this thread, I think I've decided to write the protagonist in 2nd person as a man of unspecified age who I'll give a name and a set personality decided by me, but have different backstories to choose from and physical traits (body hair, penis size, height) that are decided by the reader's choices. I think it's important to be able to have these body customization options because at the end of the day it is a humiliation story, but maybe one reader wants a small dick for SPH content, but other readers might want to have only ENF with no SPH. It's more writing this way because I have to write two sex scenes, but isn't that the fun of writing erotica?

This way, it's not the reader as the protagonist, but they still have the personal connection to the story and can customize it to their liking. And the best part about that is, I think I have an in-world explanation for why this character feels like "you" because the plot revolves around reincarnation/recycling of souls and rises and falls of mankind. Maybe "you" were the protagonist eons ago? Could be fun to explore.

I do worry I might be spreading myself too thin, trying to accomplish too much, and trying to appease too many different groups of people at once, which will lead to a worse product overall and also me burning out due to the sheer amount of writing. It's tough. I'm so stubborn, I have an idea for what I want the final cut to look like and I hate changing the fundamental aspects of it. It's definitely something I have to consider.

I'm curious to know what you think.

 

[lady-lux]

1) You say you wonder if the plot aspects of your stories bore people. What makes you say this? Do you see less engagement with the non-sexual chapters you publish? Or is it just the fear that a lot of us writers have, that what we write isn't entertaining enough?

No evidence, just that vague fear! My most "liked" chapters so far are a beginning and ending which each have no sex in them (although the ending feeds very much into the "defeat/powerlessness fantasy" of the story). Other than that, the level of likes isn't really enough to be sure of any patterns.

2) Yes, 2nd person is limiting but I think it's limiting in such a way that's absolutely perfect for the kind of story I want to write. The perspective is limited to things that the protag can directly sense, just like real life, which can be very disorienting and mysterious.

I agree, that "zoomed in" perspective is good for atmosphere. So far here I've used a "close third person" perspective, where the narrator describes what the point of view character experiences, allowing a little bit of "wiggle room" to notice things that the main character wouldn't. It could also be written in second person ("you are Luxara"), and not a huge amount would change.

One thing that I already find tricky in "close third person" and that is even trickier in second or first person, is describing the appearance of the point of view character. If a story starts in medias res and you're trying to set the scene, it can be hard to work in a description of what "you" look like, since other details are going to be on "your" mind first. And especially in erotic writing, it can lead writers into a trap where the point of view character makes observations about their own (sexy) appearance at times when it doesn't fit (as in the classic "she breasted boobily to the stairs and titted downwards" parody).

From the feedback in this thread, I think I've decided to write the protagonist in 2nd person as a man of unspecified age who I'll give a name and a set personality decided by me, but have different backstories to choose from and physical traits (body hair, penis size, height) that are decided by the reader's choices.

That definitely sounds ambitious! I guess you would use "game mode" for that? I haven't been brave enough to try it yet.

This way, it's not the reader as the protagonist, but they still have the personal connection to the story and can customize it to their liking. And the best part about that is, I think I have an in-world explanation for why this character feels like "you" because the plot revolves around reincarnation/recycling of souls and rises and falls of mankind. Maybe "you" were the protagonist eons ago? Could be fun to explore.

That sounds very interesting! I don't think I've ever seen a story where the "you" is literally you but in another life.

I do worry I might be spreading myself too thin, trying to accomplish too much, and trying to appease too many different groups of people at once, which will lead to a worse product overall and also me burning out due to the sheer amount of writing. It's tough. I'm so stubborn, I have an idea for what I want the final cut to look like and I hate changing the fundamental aspects of it. It's definitely something I have to consider.

There's certainly a risk in just taking on too much and never getting to an end point you're happy with. Sometimes, simpler is better - but I understand wanting to make your grand vision work, too! All of these answers seem to come down to "it's a tricky balance", which probably isn't very helpful, sorry!

 

[TheLowKing]

several chapters in a row without any sexual content at all

Totally normal and OK.

3. Do CHYOA readers (aka mostly men) like drama? I've come to notice that my fellow men are not interested in sappy romance scenes or angsty catfights or helping a character through mental struggles like I am.

It depends on how well you write it. The (non-erotic) Farseer tri-trilogy by Robin Hobb has tons of inter-personal drama, some of which is frankly a little eye-roll-inducing (of the "if they'd just fucking talk to each other, none of this would be a problem!" variety), but she's an amazing writer and so it works. On the other hand, E. L. James is a cheap hack and so her drama is irredeemable garbage (the e-mail scene comes to mind).

4. Is it jarring reading a dramatic story that then cuts to a goofy ENF scene?

It can be! ...But again, execution is everything. Make sure there's a distinct break between the goofy and the seriou. Very clearly and deliberately end the previous scene, start a new chapter (in a printed novel I would say section, but on CHYOA chapters are essentially their equivalent despite the name), and maybe even change the tone of your writing to indicate this is something new.

Even so, there are limits. Open-world RPGs sometimes suffer for the concessions they make to player freedom. The Elder Scrolls and Fallout games are famous for this. There's a Big Bad that will destroy the world Soon... but if you want to collect Goblin ears in the local dungeon for 50 hours first, then settle the love triangle in Farmer Village by stealing the maiden for yourself, and finally level up your weapon smithing by making 500 iron daggers, that's fiiiine, take your time!

And if your story is very dark, you can't easily switch over to something light and uneventful. Not impossible! It just gets harder with a greater shift. Baldur's Gate 3 does a better job of this than TES, imo. Yes, there is a Big Bad that must be defeated... but the party members must also learn to trust each other and to work together, and that requires rather more mundane activities as well, like hot vampire sex. Using your silly, low-stakes scenes to further the overarcing Serious Fantasy Plot... that's the Holy fucking Grail, right there.

One trick you can use is lampshading it: make your character(s) feel guilty (or angry) for the time they wasted getting a happy-ending massage from a slutty Elf. "There you are! Where have you been!? Wait, who's that behind you? Is that... Is she naked? Oh my god, you know we have to get to Capital City for Quest Item! Come on!" Boom, disbelief suspended.

And another idea that just popped into my head: send them on a wild goose chase for what they believe is some decisively important MacGuffin, let their adventures get progressively silly. They keep going because "we got this far!"... but in the end they find absolutely nothing but the sexy friends they made along the way. Oh, what a waste, boo, cry, gnashing of teeth... but meanwhile you still got your sillies/jollies off.

Off topic from the original theme of the thread: You said you want character building, are you at all interested in second person stories where "you" are the protagonist? I find it kind of difficult to write a compelling 2nd person protag even though that's my ideal for this project, because I don't want to be like "You feel this" or "You said this" because it can make it seem as if you aren't actually the protagonist at all and are actually just a character called "you" if that makes sense.

When reading erotic stories, I'm OK with both thinly veiled second-person reader-inserts and real first/third person characters created by the author. I do feel that mixing the two by creating a second-person character who has a strong personality doesn't really work in linear stories. You gotta pick a side. As for heavily branching stuff, I'm a completionist, so branches to me are not so much choices to make once as they are options to get back to and explore exhaustively, essentially turning them into into parallel stories rather than choices set in concrete, which essentially have the same limitations as linear stories do.

In my own writing, I largely stick to real characters. For me, much of the attraction of writing is putting myself into someone else's shoes, and that demands characters with real personality. (Your Sister's Boyfriend does try to straddle the divide, but I consider (that part of) it a failed experiment.) From what you've said, it sounds to me like this approach fits the story/stories you're wanting to write, too. First-person is particularly suitable for stories which focus on one character's compelling inner psyche (or less commonly: multiple characters').

In the end, I think it's really down to the individual reader/writer, not to mention, that the same person can want different things at different times as well.

100%! I'm currently reading a novel-length (376k word) erotic story... but on the side I'm also reading shorter slash stories that take maybe 15 minutes to get through.

I guess maybe the only "right" balance when you're writing is the one that comes naturally to you? Since no one answer will be "right" for every reader every time.

Indeed. Writing is hard! It takes an enormous amount of time and effort, so do yourself a favour and make it as easy as possible for yourself by writing what you like. And don't take this the wrong way, but you're less special than you think. If you like something, and you do it well, then it's very probable others will like it too.

 

[Zeebop]

In a word: poorly.

This is largely because I'm broadly a pantser who writes porn more as a way to occupy my mind off of doing the writing I should be doing or doomscrolling. So I tend to wedge erotic interludes in wherever they seem to fit, while the plot tends to agglutinate.

 

[enf_curator]

My current branch in Contractually Obligated started out as very basic short chapters, but over time, it has grown into a full plot. My sort of way of going about it is I make sure the sexy scenes are good enough for me to believe people will go back and re-read them a couple of times, giving me time to advance the plot in the adjoining chapters.

 

[RinTezukasLittleGoldfishCracker]

Thank you to everybody who replied. I don't have something to say to everyone individually but just know I appreciate every response. Apparently I had more to ask about protagonist perspective than the balance between sexy and not-sexy. Oh well. From reading the advice here (and also other threads on the forum), I think I've reached the conclusion that my idea needs some restructuring perspective/format-wise for the sake of the reader as well as a more consistent tone. I've been seriously considering 1st person because I feel like it's the farthest you can get from second person without losing that personal, opinionated viewpoint.

That's about all I have to say, thank you again everyone. I am pleasantly surprised at how welcoming the community is on this forum. It'll be a long long time before I do, but I would be glad to have you all critique my work when I eventually release it.

 

[HeirAscendant]

I've considered doing things 2 ways: having a mostly silent protagonist who emotes through body language and stays as neutral as possible when it comes to conflicts, leaving the character building up to the reader through the chapter choices. But the protagonist can't be a quiet, blank slate in a dramatic, interpersonal plot, can it?

Slay the Princess, if you’ve played it, tackled this quite elegantly with the Voices, which emerge in response to decisions made by the player, serving both as distinct characters to liven up the cast, but also to give voice to the iteration of the protagonist that player created from their choices. Disco Elysium does this as well, animating each of the skills for a similar purpose. My point is, you can absolutely have a tabula rasa for a protagonist defined by their personified characteristics. I had an idea for a story with a 2nd-person perspective very similar to yours, and I could see this approach working very well. Of course, not every story can accommodate voices in your head, so I can totally understand why you might not be amenable to this method.