This or That?

[SeriousBrainDamage]

Hey guys, my brain feels kind of gripped lately. I was trying to decide what's best to use when writing from a 3d person PoV but I can't seem to focus enough to solve the matters by myself, so here I am.

Just for example:

Yes, this girl, she was actually gorgeous, more pretty of any of the girls of their village for sure, even more than Leyna the laundress with her huge rack that gave handjobs behind the old yew for two coins each to all the boys of the village, they realized this more and more every second they kept staring at her.

I feel I can write this replacing this with that without much impact. Am I wrong? Is one of the two ways preferable?
Has this anything to do with the tense I use?

I have often a similar problem with the use of now, if that makes any sense:

For a while, after the door of the cell had been shut, the three just stood there holding their groins in silence, save for the occasional stifled grunt of pain. The girl on her part was too self conscious of her own nudity to start a conversation now the jailor was gone.

Sometimes I feel I should replace it with once or rephrase the last part.

I think this has something to do with me, the narrator, being close or far from the events occuring, but I can't seem to grasp the issue for the life of me and I feel dumb for having to ask.

 

[Warden-Yarn15]

Not a native English speaker, but I'll throw my two cents into the problem.

Yes, this girl, she was actually gorgeous, more pretty of any of the girls of their village for sure, even more than Leyna the laundress with her huge rack that gave handjobs behind the old yew for two coins each to all the boys of the village, they realized this more and more every second they kept staring at her.

I suppose this depends on whether or not the narration is introducing her, or if the narrator was talking to someone prior to the conversation. When using this, it actually does feel like that the narrator is talking to us, while using that would make more sense in a 1st POV, during a discussion perhaps. As for the second this, I believe that this is correct as it is still ongoing. To use that would mean that it has happened, and they've taken advantage of it.

For a while, after the door of the cell had been shut, the three just stood there holding their groins in silence, save for the occasional stifled grunt of pain. The girl on her part was too self conscious of her own nudity to start a conversation now the jailor was gone.

Now this is much more straightforward (I think) as now and once both clearly have distinct meanings. To use now means that the jailor is gone in the present, but to use once means that she will start being self-conscious, just as the jailor is gone.

Excuse me while I relearn the English language now.

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

Not a native English speaker, but I'll throw my two cents into the problem.

Well, I'm not either, but I feel this is one of those kind of problems that follows you thorugh the translation. I'm pretty sure I've got this once, back when I writed a little more, but now I feel like I have to relearn to ride a bicycle. Ever had this kind of feeling? It sucks.

I suppose this depends on whether or not the narration is introducing her, or if the narrator was talking to someone prior to the conversation. When using this, it actually does feel like that the narrator is talking to us, while using that would make more sense in a 1st POV, during a discussion perhaps. As for the second this, I believe that this is correct as it is still ongoing. To use that would mean that it has happened, and they've taken advantage of it.

This is an excerpt from the last thing I am(was) working on lately. The girl is the protagonist, she was introduced first, but since I'm using a 3d person omniscent PoV, I was momentarily describing her through the eyes of three secondary characters.

My dilemma originated specifically when I decided I wanted to get back on writing and started by re-reading the last few chapters. I ended up re-writing more than I intended to, like I always do.
Among the other things I changed, I switched all the 'this' and 'that' of the chapter so that they all agree to each other because I feel it's the right thing, but I still can't decided which of the two is better.

I think I should really settle this once and for all.

Now this is much more straightforward (I think) as now and once both clearly have distinct meanings. To use now means that the jailor is gone in the present, but to use once means that she will start being self-conscious, just as the jailor is gone.

But I'm using the past tense. So the whole story has already happened form the narrator point of view, while it is still appening in the narrative present.
Does that makes any sense?

I mean, the jailor has left, some time has passed, let's say less ten minutes or so, and the girl feels akward being naked and stared by three strangers and all this has hit her once she was left alone with them because before of that she was focused on the jailor.

So yeah, the jailor is gone and she(the girl) starts(has started really) to feel self conscious once she(the jailor) was gone.
Where does that put me?

 

[Warden-Yarn15]

But I'm using the past tense. So the whole story has already happened form the narrator point of view, while it is still appening in the narrative present.
Does that makes any sense?

I mean, the jailor has left, some time has passed, let's say less ten minutes or so, and the girl feels akward being naked and stared by three strangers and all this has hit her once she was left alone with them because before of that she was focused on the jailor.

So yeah, the jailor is gone and she(the girl) starts(has started really) to feel self conscious once she(the jailor) was gone.
Where does that put me?

Ok, I still believe now is the proper term as that does refer much to the present, or acted upon after something had happened, sooner or later. Once implies that it happened immediately after, instead of some time passing, at least it does to me.

This is an excerpt from the last thing I am(was) working on lately. The girl is the protagonist, she was introduced first, but since I'm using a 3d person omniscent PoV, I was momentarily describing her through the eyes of three secondary characters.

My dilemma originated specifically when I decided I wanted to get back on writing and started by re-reading the last few chapters. I ended up re-writing more than I intended to, like I always do.
Among the other things I changed, I switched all the 'this' and 'that' of the chapter so that they all agree to each other because I feel it's the right thing, but I still can't decided which of the two is better.

I think I should really settle this once and for all.

When you put it that way, that does sound like the proper term as it's not the narrator talking to us, but reading the minds of three other characters? If so, I believe that correct as the use of this would more fit the introduction of a 3rd Person Narrator while the use of that does help the narration for the thoughts of said characters.

Well, I'm not either, but I feel this is one of those kind of problems that follows you thorugh the translation. I'm pretty sure I've got this once, back when I writed a little more, but now I feel like I have to relearn to ride a bicycle. Ever had this kind of feeling? It sucks.

Oh, believe me, I get those days a lot. One day you're using big fancy words (that I totally didn't read from Merriam-Webster) and using them in stories, essays, and whatnot. The next thing you know, you don't remember the rules of grammar, and everything that you've written, you have to second guess, or third guess, or re-read over and over again until it makes the most perfect sense.

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

Ok, I still believe now is the proper term as that does refer much to the present, or acted upon after something had happened, sooner or later. Once implies that it happened immediately after, instead of some time passing, at least it does to me.

Yeah, I think I get this one.
Now should mean that somewere in those 10 minutues or so, she started to feel self-conscious, but the stress is on the fact that now she she does.
Once instead should mean that just after the jailor left, she became self-conscious. This probably still lasts to the (narrative) present, but the stress is on the fact that her feeling changed right after that event.

In this case I feel they return pretty much the same result in relation to what I wanted to accomplish.

When you put it that way, that does sound like the proper term as it's not the narrator talking to us, but reading the minds of three other characters?

Yeah, that's right. That is kind of their train of thoughts.

If so, I believe that correct as the use of this would more fit the introduction of a 3rd Person Narrator while the use of that does help the narration for the thoughts of said characters.

I'm getting lost again. The narrator by the way is not also a character if you are wondering.

At the moment, after re-reading the chapter at nausam, I'm leaning towards the two options being interchangeable and just a matter of taste, but I'm still bent on trying to figure which one is best.

Oh, believe me, I get those days a lot. One day you're using big fancy words (that I totally didn't read from Merriam-Webster) and using them in stories, essays, and whatnot. The next thing you know, you don't remember the rules of grammar, and everything that you've written, you have to second guess, or third guess, or re-read over and over again until it makes the most perfect sense.

 

[Warden-Yarn15]

I'm getting lost again. The narrator by the way is not also a character if you are wondering.

At the moment, after re-reading the chapter at nausam, I'm leaning towards the two options being interchangeable and just a matter of taste, but I'm still bent on trying to figure which one is best.

Ignore my message if it actually retracts from the argument.

Whaever feels the most natural, should be chosen. Or wait for a few days and see if a eureka moment happens.

 

[gene.sis]

Not a native speaker either, so I might be wrong...

Has this anything to do with the tense I use?

No.

"This" (and plural "these") refers to something that is close to you or an idea that comes from you.
"That" (and plural "those") refers to something that is farther away or if you talk about an idea from someone else.

When using this, it actually does feel like that the narrator is talking to us, while using that would make more sense in a 1st POV

In 3rd person, I think "this" makes more sense. Unless the girl isn't present at the scene. "This girl looks better than that girl who lives down the street."
I don't think it makes a difference if the three characters are seen through the eyes of other characters. It is still the narrator who describes the protagonist.

In 1st person, I think "this" would be appropriate if the narrator stands beside the girl while "that" should be used if the girl sits at another table.

The girl on her part was too self conscious of her own nudity to start a conversation now the jailor was gone.

I mean, the jailor has left, some time has passed, let's say less ten minutes or so, and the girl feels akward being naked and stared by three strangers and all this has hit her once she was left alone with them because before of that she was focused on the jailor.

As some time has already passed, I would rather use "since".

Yes, this girl, she was actually gorgeous, more pretty of any of the girls of their village for sure, even more than Leyna the laundress with her huge rack that gave handjobs behind the old yew for two coins each to all the boys of the village, they realized this more and more every second they kept staring at her.

I would suggest using shorter sentences.
You could also try to simply avoid "this" and "that" if possible.

(I think that a laundress would usually have rather dry and rough skin, so a handjob might not make much sense in the given context.)

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

In 3rd person, I think "this" makes more sense. Unless the girl isn't present at the scene. "This girl looks better than that girl who lives down the street."
I don't think it makes a difference if the three characters are seen through the eyes of other characters. It is still the narrator who describes the protagonist.

In 1st person, I think "this" would be appropriate if the narrator stands beside the girl while "that" should be used if the girl sits at another table.

I don't understand what are you saying.

I'll try to explain my reasoning just in case: since I'm writing in 3d person with past tense, the narrator tells a story that has happened far away from him in time and space. He's not in the dungeon cell. He wasn't either. Would this still be ok?

Yes, this girl, she was actually gorgeous, more pretty of any of the girls of their village for sure, even more than Leyna the laundress with her huge rack that gave handjobs behind the old yew for two coins each to all the boys of the village, they realized this more and more every second they kept staring at her.

If I was using the present tense instead, I belive this could have been more appropriate as the narrator would be describing something happening in that very moment, hence logically under his very eyes. That even if the narrator isn't actually a proper character.

I'm not sure that the character being a protagonist or not has anything to do with this.

As some time has already passed, I would rather use "since".

Yeah, since feels better than once. I noticed the phrase is missing a 'that' to make sense with now anyways.

For a while, after the door of the cell had been shut, the three just stood there holding their groins in silence, save for the occasional stifled grunt of pain. The girl on her part was too self conscious of her own nudity to start a conversation now THAT the jailor was gone

I would suggest using shorter sentences.
You could also try to simply avoid "this" and "that" if possible.

(I think that a laundress would usually have rather dry and rough skin, so a handjob might not make much sense in the given context.)

Mmm, well, I accept the suggestion but you can't really expect me to change my baroque prose like that overnight.

Honestly, I just posted I few lines, and I have to admit it's an eyesore to read them over and over, extrapolated from the rest of the text.
They are so full of errors and every time I read them I want to change something. But at some point I have to let it go, especially since this is already published and I should really leave it alone and focus on writing new stuff.

(I didn't stop to consider this... that? whatever, but the idea was that the guys come from a little backwater village and have scarce confidence with beauty and sex so that might be even better.)

 

[YveltalWarrior]

Hello, local native American English speaker and antiquity enthusiast here, I'm going to give my take on the subject.

So, to me, the word "that" is typically more harsh and condescending than the word "this." Now, honestly there is no grammatical difference since they are interchangeable demonstratives, but in terms of context and meaning, I drew my conclusion from Latin and basic speech.

In Latin, if you wanted to say "I am annoyed by that man," it would be something like "Isto viro vexo." Notice how the word "isto" sounds a bit like the hissing of a snake with the "ist-" sound. The word "iste" in Latin means "that," but it typically is used with a negative connotation to the noun being described due to it needing to be pronounced with a hissing sound. So, that's one reason why I typically associate "that" with negative.

Remember when you were a young, innocent little child and your mom would tell you not to "be like that man" when you drove by a garbage man or a construction worker? No? Well, it happened to me, and this is another reason why I associate the word "that" with a negative connotation to the noun it's describing. I've noticed when people speak English in America (myself included) and like or want something, they say, "I like/want this (insert wanted noun here)." Yet, when they don't want something or hate something, what is typically said is, "I hate/don't want that (insert unwanted noun here)." Now, this is just how I see it, if anyone else sees it the other way, feel free to say so.

As I said before, both demonstratives are interchangeable, so there is no major difference, but the context and the way the word is said mean everything.

About your "now" or "once" problem, this is a bit different but also simpler. "Now" or "once" aren't entirely interchangeable, if you want to make "once" into "now," you might need to make it into "now that" instead. e.g.: "Once he left, she walked out" or "Now that he left, she walked out." Other than that, in terms of context, "now" and "once" have no difference and can be used in any scenario. I don't notice any speech quirks pertaining to them, so I think that they can be used interchangeably.

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

Hello, local native American English speaker and antiquity enthusiast here, I'm going to give my take on the subject.

So, to me, the word "that" is typically more harsh and condescending than the word "this." Now, honestly there is no grammatical difference since they are interchangeable demonstratives, but in terms of context and meaning, I drew my conclusion from Latin and basic speech.

In Latin, if you wanted to say "I am annoyed by that man," it would be something like "Isto viro vexo." Notice how the word "isto" sounds a bit like the hissing of a snake with the "ist-" sound. The word "iste" in Latin means "that," but it typically is used with a negative connotation to the noun being described due to it needing to be pronounced with a hissing sound. So, that's one reason why I typically associate "that" with negative.

Remember when you were a young, innocent little child and your mom would tell you not to "be like that man" when you drove by a garbage man or a construction worker? No? Well, it happened to me, and this is another reason why I associate the word "that" with a negative connotation to the noun it's describing. I've noticed when people speak English in America (myself included) and like or want something, they say, "I like/want this (insert wanted noun here)." Yet, when they don't want something or hate something, what is typically said is, "I hate/don't want that (insert unwanted noun here)." Now, this is just how I see it, if anyone else sees it the other way, feel free to say so.

As I said before, both demonstratives are interchangeable, so there is no major difference, but the context and the way the word is said mean everything.

About your "now" or "once" problem, this is a bit different but also simpler. "Now" or "once" aren't entirely interchangeable, if you want to make "once" into "now," you might need to make it into "now that" instead. e.g.: "Once he left, she walked out" or "Now that he left, she walked out." Other than that, in terms of context, "now" and "once" have no difference and can be used in any scenario. I don't notice any speech quirks pertaining to them, so I think that they can be used interchangeably.

Your take is very interesting, puls I would have never expected to be lectured about latin by an American. I had my fair share of latin too, back in the day. Nowdays most of it is lost in the haze of my failing memory.
I don't mean this in a bad way.

I'm getting more and more conviced that the two words, this and that, can be exchanged quite safely. I somehow tied this and now to first and second person narration with present tense (close in time and space to the narrator), but I can see it's not that strict.

About that being bad and this good, I think it could have something to do with people wanting to put a distance with the things they hate while keeping close the things they like, most of the time.

Thanks for you reply.

 

[gene.sis]

As a native speaker, you usually don't have to think about such things and do as you feel is right.
So I'm just trying to get the gist of it:

your mom would tell you not to "be like that man" when you drove by a garbage man or a construction worker?

Though that man probably wasn't close, so he was probably "over there" and not "over here," fitting the definition of it as well.

Well, it happened to me, and this

Here, your usage of "this" refers to what you just described with "happened to me" and/or your own thought, fitting the definition of the narrator being close to the idea/thing.

"I like/want this (insert wanted noun here)."

So it is something that would be close to them, something they could identify with, kind of their own idea.

"I hate/don't want that (insert unwanted noun here)."

So it is something they want to be farther away from, something that isn't their idea of fun.

Basically the same as said here:

About that being bad and this good, I think it could have something to do with people wanting to put a distance with the things they hate while keeping close the things they like, most of the time.

Other than that,

I think this is a standard phrase, so you would never use "this" in this case.

I'm getting more and more conviced that the two words, this and that, can be exchanged quite safely.

I agree with YveltalWarrior that there is no grammatical difference but if you use the wrong one, you might change the meaning.

I mean, this/that statement is obviously wrong.

Here, "this" would refer to my statement while "that" would refer to your statement.


Actually, there are some examples on M-W about this and that.

 

[gene.sis]

I'll try to explain my reasoning just in case: since I'm writing in 3d person with past tense, the narrator tells a story that has happened far away from him in time and space. He's not in the dungeon cell. He wasn't either. Would this still be ok?

I would say that the narrator is there, even if not physically. But the girl is present at the scene.
So I think "this" is the right option.
He also probably "talked" about the girl in the previous sentence, so "this" would refer to the girl that was mentioned in that sentence.

Mmm, well, I accept the suggestion but you can't really expect me to change my baroque prose like that overnight.

Well, long sentences are more difficult to write and if you do it wrong, you might change the meaning or make it hard for the reader to understand.
So if you have trouble with a sentence, you could try to split it up into two.

(I didn't stop to consider this... that? whatever, but the idea was that the guys come from a little backwater village and have scarce confidence with beauty and sex so that might be even better.)

What about just peeping on her when she changes? Or ogle her cleavage when she does her work? Or watching the constant jiggling of her breasts as she uses the washboard?

 

[insertnamehere]

That is technically correct for third person, past tense.

The narrator is not an actual character and is not present in space or in time, so if they refer to something as though it were currently in front of them, it is technically incorrect.

However, third-person narration often expresses characters' thoughts and expressions, so this 'feels' more appropriate. What you have written might very well be the characters' internal monologue, just with pronouns and tense changed. The scene is set such that the reader clearly understands who this girl is. As a writer, it is up to you to decide when it is best to use this or that.

I would personally much favour this in your scenario because it gives a certain emotional weight to the words. That girl sounds distant; this girl sounds immediate, even if the tense and POV are actually distant. A person would be thinking this girl over that girl if the girl was the primary thing occupying their mind.

The phrase 'at hand' is not the most specific or helpful of descriptors. Generally, I can think of three main situations I would use this in:

• To refer to the primary idea currently at hand. This is shown at the start of this very sentence. In such a case, the word this refers to exactly one thing, the most thissy thing, if you will, so you need to reserve such usage for when you're sure you and your readership will agree on what this actually refers to.
• To refer to the member of a category of things that is uniquely at hand. This is shown toward the end of this sentence. Here, there's only one sentence at hand at any given moment, so saying 'this sentence' is not ambiguous. You could say 'this very' to emphasise that something is referring to itself, as I did earlier.
• To refer to something that has been made the subject of conversation through non-verbal means - often something that is literally at hand. For instance, if I walk past my house, I might point at it and say, "That is my house." If I stop and turn to face my house before pointing, I would instead say, "This is my house." Alternatively, if I point at a pumpkin on a table, it would be "that pumpkin." If I pick the pumpkin up, it becomes "this pumpkin."

The difference between a craft and a mere task is the ability for the person doing it to make subjective judgements on what is best for their end goal. Writing is a craft because you are free to use language however you like. Writing is hard because it's difficult to know when you should or shouldn't bend the bars of syntax and grammar, or when it is simply an option. Remember that your ultimate objective is (presumably) communication.

 

[SeriousBrainDamage]

That is technically correct for third person, past tense.

The narrator is not an actual character and is not present in space or in time, so if they refer to something as though it were currently in front of them, it is technically incorrect.

However, third-person narration often expresses characters' thoughts and expressions, so this 'feels' more appropriate. What you have written might very well be the characters' internal monologue, just with pronouns and tense changed. The scene is set such that the reader clearly understands who this girl is. As a writer, it is up to you to decide when it is best to use this or that.

I would personally much favour this in your scenario because it gives a certain emotional weight to the words. That girl sounds distant; this girl sounds immediate, even if the tense and POV are actually distant. A person would be thinking this girl over that girl if the girl was the primary thing occupying their mind.

I'm leaning towards this conclusion too. There some parts where internal thoughts are expressed and other parts where it's just the narrator pointing at a character.

I didn't want to post the whole chapter, a bigger excerpt may be useful though. See down.

I agree with YveltalWarrior that there is no grammatical difference but if you use the wrong one, you might change the meaning.

I think I've got the basic usage covered, I may still have made mistakes, but my probelm was mostly about the logic flow of the text.

The phrase 'at hand' is not the most specific or helpful of descriptors. Generally, I can think of three main situations I would use this in:

• To refer to the primary idea currently at hand. This is shown at the start of this very sentence. In such a case, the word this refers to exactly one thing, the most thissy thing, if you will, so you need to reserve such usage for when you're sure you and your readership will agree on what this actually refers to.
• To refer to the member of a category of things that is uniquely at hand. This is shown toward the end of this sentence. Here, there's only one sentence at hand at any given moment, so saying 'this sentence' is not ambiguous. You could say 'this very' to emphasise that something is referring to itself, as I did earlier.
• To refer to something that has been made the subject of conversation through non-verbal means - often something that is literally at hand. For instance, if I walk past my house, I might point at it and say, "That is my house." If I stop and turn to face my house before pointing, I would instead say, "This is my house." Alternatively, if I point at a pumpkin on a table, it would be "that pumpkin." If I pick the pumpkin up, it becomes "this pumpkin."

Somewhat helpful, thanks.

The difference between a craft and a mere task is the ability for the person doing it to make subjective judgements on what is best for their end goal. Writing is a craft because you are free to use language however you like. Writing is hard because it's difficult to know when you should or shouldn't bend the bars of syntax and grammar, or when it is simply an option. Remember that your ultimate objective is (presumably) communication.

As said above, I felt kind of stuck and the cogs of my brain didn't want to budge. I think just talking about it has help a lot.

What about just peeping on her when she changes? Or ogle her cleavage when she does her work? Or watching the constant jiggling of her breasts as she uses the washboard?

It was just a background detail, not something I wanted to spend more than a sentece on. I changed laudress to widow anyways.

Spoiler: Some more this and that

For a while, after the door of the cell had been shut, the three Humans just stood there holding their groins in silence, save for the occasional stifled grunt of pain. Rayla on her part was too self conscious of her own nudity to start a conversation now that Claudia was gone.
She saw them stole a glance now and then, and that kept her uncomfortably aware of how exposed she was.
Little by little she watched the boys lose their shyness, until a point was reached where they stopped caring to hide and their stare became wolfish and brazen.
They still looked somewhat wary of her though and kept their distance.

"So, uhm... you're an Elf?" asked one of them. It was the chubby, freckled lad with red hair.
"Sssh! Don't speak to her, idiot, she will turn you into a toad!" snapped the one on his right, the tallest, and probably elder of the three.
"That's horse bullshit. Where did you hear that one?" retorted the first. He looked antsy and restless more than the other two. He kept fiddling with the hem of his loincloth. Rayla judged it to be an effect of the larger dose of mixture he had drank form Claudia's vial.
"I've read in book that Elves eat their prisoner. They don't even cook you, they cut you in pieces and eat you raw on the spot, just like that..." intruded the third, a scrawny dark skinned young man with a pair of thin rimmed spectacles.

***
"So, uhm, are you fellas from around these parts?" asked Rayla suddenly realizing she didn't knew for sure how far the dungeon was located from where she had fell from the ridge and nearly drowned.
She had been staring silently at the wall for a while trying all her best to not think of what was happening behind her back. The image of those three cucumbers lingered in her brain though.
"Village of Tamar. All of us," huffed the voice of the one which Rayla judged was Edrig.
It came from a little closer than expected.

All the three prisoners in fact, had slowly crept right behind her back.
At first, they had been somewhat off-put by the blatant elfishness of this girl. Elves are evil and scary and ugly and it is widely known that they do all sorts of nasty things. This Rayla though had seemed nice enough. Besides, she was safely chained. And naked.
This especially was having a huge weight in their lucubrations.
The boys had never had the chance to see woman completely naked like this, in full display, and to be fair they had to admit that Elf or not, it was a very suggestive sight to behold. Her candy-pink skin and white hair had looked hideous at first to them, then a little queer, then alluringly exotic as minutes passed.

After all, their own junk had turned of a lively green too. It had seemed suddenly natural and logical to crave for a pink pussy.
Yes, this Elf girl, she was... actually gorgeous, more pretty than any of the girls of their village, even more than Leyna the widow with that huge rack that gave handjobs behind the old yew for two coins each to all the boys of age, the three realized that more and more every second they kept staring at her.