Camming

[TheLowKing]

OK, I started this as a profile post, but I kept running out of characters, so I figured I'd make a thread.

Did some research (I swear!) into camming for an upcoming chapter, and it's *amazing* how many camgirls just... sit there for minutes at a time, doing absolutely fuck-all. Isn't the point of watching a camgirl that there's interaction between performer and audience, that it's not just a video being replayed? Every time, after like 30 seconds without any dialogue or activity at all, I was like, well, this is fucking boring, let's try another.

The point for Camgirl, is to get the audience into paying them. If you are watching a free stream, they'll occasionally chat with you and try to get you into tipping them or paying for the private room or whatever the site has. ...Then they do more sexy stuff to keep you in there.

I understand that, ultimately they're camming to get paid... but before I do that, I have to actually be engaged, first, right? Like it or not, there's a huge amount of porn out there that's literally free, so if you want me to actually open my wallet for you, you first have to show me that I'll get more out of it than I get from "video of hot girl masturbating #274,182.mp4" or "video of sexy girl sucking a dildo #172,291.webm".

I probably checked about 50 camgirls. Some were checking their phones. Some were typing their responses. Some were just staring off into the middle distance. A lot were masturbating, which is at least a reasonable move... but again, there is a nigh-infinite number of free videos on the Internet showing people shoving a dildo up an orifice, so that's not still not going to do the trick either. Well, not for me, anyway.

Only 3 that I remember (credit where credit's due: AutomicBlue and SinCityVEE on MFC, and catanddickxxx on Chaturbate) had any significant interaction with the viewers that made me actually want to stick around for more than a couple of minutes. And I'm not talking about sex stuff! Just... saying hi to people, making small talk, talking about their day, stuff like that. Engagement!

 

[raziel83]

There are a few issues here:

a) If you go to any of the cam sites that offer free videos, there is little incentive for the camgirls to do anything for free viewers. So the masturbation shows and nudity are reserved for the paid room (and often you will see most camgirls in the "free section" with the feed shut and a notification that they are doing a paid stream.) The other option is that they offer to do stuff for tips that the viewers pay and then when goals are reached they might strip for everyone or something. But if no one is paying them at the moment, the motivation to do things for free goes down.

b) There's so many Camgirls. Some spend so much time online that they might be tired, lost their motivation or are having a bad day. Quality varies like with any service and being a camgirl is likely one of the safest ways to get into sex work, so some of them might be just trying it out or not know how to treat their audience. You found a few who did engagement right and weren't just coasting and hoping that their customers are too horny to care that they just sit around. I'm not going to guess at a ratio, but clearly some camgirls are better at the job than others.

c) Viewers are paying for interaction. Instead of going to a porn site to watch a pre-recorded video, you are actually interacting with the camgirls/guys and can request stuff. This is the one big difference. Still not the same as being in the room with them, so you aren't getting the "real deal" but for some viewers this is what they pay for. Not the nudity, not the sex acts, but that they are doing those sex acts *for* you and chatting with you while they do them.

 

[TheLowKing]

But when I tune in to one of the 673 active streams on MFC or one of the 7007 on Chaturbate... what is it that will keep me there? And why are do so few camgirls seem to be doing the things that will achieve that? Because keeping me there is a pre-requisite for getting me to spend money, which is the obvious end goal.

As for an answer, I agree with you that it's interaction that viewers pay for... but I'm not going to spend money to interact with someone who's just sitting there, as expressionless as an animatronic puppet that's waiting for someone to insert a coin. You have to show that you actually will interact if people pay and I have to see that I actually like the way you're interacting with people, both of which will encourage me to actually cough up some small portion of your next rent payment in order for you to then interact with me. And you have about 30 seconds to do it, or I'll just grow bored and switch to the next stream.

But the order is important! First I have to be convinced you're someone I'll enjoy interacting with (whatever such interaction entails), and then will I consider giving you money in order to get that interaction. So dance, say hi to people, call your viewers dirty worms, talk inanely about your day, pet your cat, blow bubbles, do literally anything. One model was using her stream as an impromptu therapy session to complain about her ex... and it fucking worked! I hung around for at least 5 minutes listening to her vent. That's how low the bar is.

(And I didn't make this very clear in my first post, but masturbating for free is also probably a perfectly fine strategy for attracting viewers too. And so many models do: 5 out of the first 24 thumbnails on MFC and 8 out of 24 on Chaturbate show the model(s) masturbating or having sex.

But like I said above, porn videos are essentially free. You can't compete with the free porn video market if you demand to be paid before you'll masturbate, so you need to offer something else to draw viewers in, offer something porn videos can't. Which brings us back to viewer interaction.)

The only bad thing you can do is nothing and that's what's so confusing to me, because that's what so many of them appear to be doing.

 

[raziel83]

Fair enough.

 

[Kore]

As I have taken a look into this issue for my branch in Chyoa sex chat, I would say there are different motivations leading to different behavior.
(Though the main motivation is obviously getting tokens, so that might always help to motivate a model.)

There are some models who want to have private shows only. They might only show their face until someone starts a (paid) show with them. That's the advertisement and if you want to get something, you have to "buy" the whole thing.
Others want to have public shows with the viewers collaborating, so the individual viewer might give fewer tokens while the model gets more tokens in less time (and with less exhaustion.) This can also lead to a group dynamic creating a momentum to quickly reach the token goal of a cum show or to reach higher token goals.
There are also models who do both, though I think that interrupting a public stream because of a private show is rather bad for the outcome of the public show.


Many models use sex toys that are activated by tips. (E.g. Lovense)
This creates an immediate reaction and the viewer might also get confirmation that it isn't a video.
With that, the viewer is only a click away of getting interaction.
As you can do that with a single token, it isn't a big gamble.
These toys also give the viewer some kind of power over the model.

It is also possible to chat with the model in the public chat.
I guess that could feel like hitting on a girl in a bar from the safety of the viewer's home.
If the model is actually bored due to a lack of interaction, this might even lead to something.

Most models use tip menus, so you can directly tip for predefined actions. While the model can technically still refuse to do it, it is rather unlikely. So the viewer knows how the model looks and how much they might have to tip to get an advertised action. While that is surely more expensive than single tokens, it might still not be too much to be a deterrent.

Models can also see whether viewers have or spent tokens before. If there are no potential customers, it might not make sense to do much besides waiting for someone who is actually willing to spend some tokens.

Some models might have a hard time communicating with the viewers due to lack of understanding the language.

If a "new viewer" wants to have a free show, they might just have to be patient and wait long enough until a "regular viewer" who might be into the model might start the party. If that happens, the "new viewer" might eventually become a fan of the model.

But the order is important! First I have to be convinced you're someone I'll enjoy interacting with (whatever such interaction entails), and then will I consider giving you money in order to get that interaction.

First, the model needs to be convinced to get paid before considering to show off.
If they just masturbate "for free," it might not work out as there might be no incentive to spend tokens anymore.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.
Dancing or something might work for some but it might depend on their personality. Some of them might actually not feign their shyness.

But like I said above, porn videos are essentially free. You can't compete with the free porn video market if you demand to be paid before you'll masturbate, so you need to offer something else to draw viewers in, offer something porn videos can't. Which brings us back to viewer interaction.

I think that porn might feel less real for the viewer. The viewer knows that the person is somewhere at the exact moment and that they can't "skip to the pop shot" or rewind to watch it again.
And the viewer still has ways to start the interaction.

The only bad thing you can do is nothing and that's what's so confusing to me, because that's what so many of them appear to be doing.

Sure, some models might not make a good cut due to their performance.
Some might not have to as a token might buy a lot more at the model's location than it is worth at the viewer's location.
Some might only do it until they find something else to earn money and might not have the experience or patience to figure out how to optimize their shows.

 

[TheLowKing]

All good points!

First, the model needs to be convinced to get paid before considering to show off.
If they just masturbate "for free," it might not work out as there might be no incentive to spend tokens anymore.

I want to zoom in on this part of your post, and provide some supporting arguments for my basic point of "models have to do at least something for free if they want to be succesful".

You're right that there's a process of selection on both sides: models want to find people who will pay them and viewers want to find models that do/show what they like to watch. But that doesn't mean the two sides are equal.

You're also right that as a viewer, you can test the waters with just 1 token, just 8-10 cents worth. But even that barest of investments already disqualifies the vast majority of viewers: 65-70% of viewers don't even have an account, and another 20-25% have never bought a single token. The amount of effort these viewers would have to expend to even be able to donate is so high as to make them essentially worthless as an audience for models to appeal to or actively engage with. (And so they rightly don't!)

(In theory, free users can contribute to a stream without spending money, for example by chatting, which gives the model a opportunity for interaction, which in turn helps the stream be entertaining, retaining viewers, and probably increasing money earned in the long term. But the kind of people willing to chat in a way that contributes to the stream (ie. not just spew invectives or spam "show feet") are probably already pretty invested and likely to have already tipped or subscribed.)

So we're left with the 10% that remain. Only a small portion of them is what I would call a significant supporter: people who have tipped 50+ tokens in the last 2 weeks or who pay a subscription of 50+ tokens a month (varying per model)†. The top 3 models currently have 3000-4000 viewers each, but of those just 111, 81, and 58 are significant supporters, respectively. 3 other models with ~500 total viewers that I picked at random have 23, 36, and 28 significant supporters viewing, respectively. And that's still in the top 1%! At the time of writing, 95th percentile has ~60 viewers, and 90th percentile has just ~30 viewers. 90% of models do (even?) worse than that!

(† This equates to $65 or $30+ a year at $0.05 a token to the model. It's still a low bar to clear!)

OK, not all significant supporters are online at the same time, so let's triple all of those numbers. That means we're talking about 90 supporters for 99th percentile models, maybe 15 for 95th percentile models, and 5-10 for the 90th percentile models. Whereas for even the most casual viewers, there are literally thousands of models to watch.


And the stakes are similarly lopsided.

For all but the absolutely-tippy-top most popular models, the number of real whales can probably be counted on the fingers of 1 hand. (Or even on the thumbs of 1 hand.) Losing just 1 of those could be the difference between being fine and not being able to pay the rent (or even buy food) this month.

Whereas what happens to me if I as a viewer can't find a satisfying stream? Nothing more serious than a slightly less satisfying masturbation session.


With such an imbalance in supply and demand, and with these power dynamics, the basic economics dictates a buyer's market with very low prices for the basic product of "girl doing sexy thing"; $0 in many cases. Yes, as a free viewer you can't expect meaningfully interact with most models without paying at least 8-10 cents, but you can still watch them engage in anything ranging from friendly chatting to vaguely sexy hip swaying to full-on masturbation. Asking your viewers to pay for what they can get for free elsewhere is non-viable from a pure business perspective.


And yet (getting back to my original reason for making this thread)! Lots of models are doing exactly that. So either they're dumb, or I am. I've got 50/50 odds.

 

[TheLowKing]

Fun fact! And the dynamic holds for erotic story writers like ourselves! If I post the title and a synopsis of my story to CHYOA and then say "now come to my site and pay $5 to read the story", my business will crash and burn, because there's millions of stories out there that can be read for free. No matter how much we might like it to be otherwise*, "sex story" as a product is worth nothing, nada, zilch, squat. If you want to earn money in this space, you have to go about it some other way. (And if you're only in it for the money, you should really just get a minimum wage job instead.)

(* Though as a reader I'm very glad it isn't.)

 

[OccasionalReader]

If you want to earn money in this space, you have to go about it some other way. (And if you're only in it for the money, you should really just get a minimum wage job instead.)

I mean my theory is that the appeal is that if you pay money you can get commissioned work to your specifications (within reason)

Like I'm willing to write my stories that I want to write for free, but there's some lines I'm not willing to cross unless it's for money (and still others I'm not willing to cross even if money is on the line)

 

[GyroscopicGraphite]

I mean my theory is that the appeal is that if you pay money you can get commissioned work to your specifications (within reason)

Like I'm willing to write my stories that I want to write for free, but there's some lines I'm not willing to cross unless it's for money (and still others I'm not willing to cross even if money is on the line)

This is pretty much the exact business model of every Patreon/Kofi/Subscribestar; post something appealing and offer a fee to see something more, or something customized just for you.

Let me tell you, it goddamn works. Personally, I have a few names in mind who I'd support based purely off of what they offer for free. If I had my own Kofi/Fiverr, I'd gladly write a scene for my subscribers/customers (though I do think a 'within reason' needs to be tacked onto the records)